IRAQ showdown

[stilllearnin]

[quote]I wouldn't be suprised if Iraq has no concrete tie to what happened on 9/11.[/quote] Well if they are or not -
The 3 huge murals of 9/11 attacks portrayed as a good thing,don't seem to me like they we're saddened by it.

And since Al-quiade people,weapons and documents have now been found in Iraq it doesn't seem like it'd be real far off to say they , have ties.


[quote]It kind of gives a false sense of accomplishment to the war on terror, I don't think that a victory in Iraq does much for stoping terrorism[/quote]:confused: even with all the funding Iraq does for terroism,the terrorist training camps there, the terroists they have addmittedly! sent here and the amount of terrorism they either sponsor or reward against israel, much less anyone terrorising their own people I doubt has any problem doing terrorist attcks against anyone else, you don't think getting rid of that or even lessening it will have a [u]huge[/u] impact on terrorism? To me it seems like any other situation - you reduce somethings habitat and supplies and it eventually becomes extinct



[quote]North Korea Scare me! [/quote]
and why? yes they could [u]TRY[/u] to attack us but even though they're often portrayed as crazy I think they know they would be smashed if they launched nukes at us and even though the media likes making a big deal about it,it's pretty much guaranteed it'd be shot down before it had a chance to get here much less detonate. Ever notice - they only get mouthy when the U.S. is in a U.N.meeting or something else important? I think in the end it'll end up proveing out that they want paid off and they figure if they play scare games first they'll get more $$

[cichlidfish]

Hi Jim,

No that wasn't local fox or other news talking, it was well researched. Plans for Operation Bojinka were discovered during a 1995 raid by Philippine police on the apartment of Ramzi Yousef, an al-Qaeda operative with ties to Iraq who was convicted in 1997 of masterminding the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. Operation Bojinka was a plot to use commercial airliners as weapons and another plot to put bombs on U.S. airliners. ... it is a fact that this information was circulated within the U.S. intelligence community, and that in late 1996 President Clinton was aware of it.

Also, Fourteen survivors and victims of the Oklahoma City bombing in April 1995 filed suit against Iraq in federal district court in Washington, D.C., last week, claiming that Iraqi officials gave money and training to Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols. McVeigh was executed last April. Nichols, convicted of manslaughter and given a life sentence in federal court, is awaiting trial in Oklahoma state court, where survivors are determined that he get a death sentence. Terry Nichols received his bomb-making expertise from Iraqi intelligence based in the Philippines. Nichols met with Ramzi Yousef, the mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing "in the early 1990s on the island of Mindanao ... to discuss acquisition of firearms and bomb making. ...22 sworn affidavits from Oklahoma residents who have identified eight Middle Eastern men, allegedly including several former Iraqi soldiers, who the witnesses claim collaborated with Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols in the bombing plot. McVeigh has been executed for his role in the attack; Nichols is in prison.
One of the alleged former Iraqi soldiers is Hussain Al-Hussaini. Retired Col. Patrick Lang, the former chief of human intelligence for the Defense Investigative Agency, identified a tattoo on Hussaini's shoulder as indicative of having served in Saddam Hussein's elite Republican Guard. Seven of those witnesses place Hussain Al-Hussaini in the company of Timothy McVeigh, riding in the Ryder truck, the morning of the bombing, stepping out of that truck at ground zero, directly in front of the federal building moments before the massive fertilizer bomb exploded and speeding away from downtown in a brown Chevrolet pickup that matched the FBI's all points bulletin for foreign suspects that morning...also claim to have seen Hussaini speeding away from the Murrah Federal Building after the bombing in a brown Chevrolet truck, identical to the one for which the FBI issued an all-points bulletin. That all-points bulletin was withdrawn shortly after McVeigh's arrest.

The link between IRAQ and world-wide terrorism is irrevocable.

XXX President Clinton drastically reduced our military and our intelligence agencies suffered as well. We would have been a lot better prepared for such wars(and terrorism) otherwise.....

Also, in terms of opposition from other European countries, they are just being selfish, they, especially Russia have a LOT of money invested in IRAQ(building refineries for them, etc..), I believe the US has even offered some of these countries partial compensation.

[quote][i]Originally posted by jdicicco [/i]
[b]Cichlidfish,
I hope that's not Fox News speaking, lol--J/K.

I am all for the US, Britian and Australia protecting freedom, and giving Freedom to the Iraqi People. Hell, this Iraq thing should have been settled 12 years ago like Stilllearnin pointed out previously. However, I wouldn't be suprised if Iraq has no concrete tie to what happened on 9/11. I know from my experiences with politicians both local and national that they use the AP to bend stories to keep American's believing what they want us too. Don't Get me wrong, I doubt the Iraqi Regime was Saddened by 9/11, I am just not sold on the Iraqi Regime connection with the Taliban or AlQueda. It kind of gives a false sense of accomplishment to the war on terror, I don't think that a victory in Iraq does much for stoping terrorism. Iraq does not scare me, Terrorism and North Korea Scare me!
-Jim [/b][/quote]

[jdicicco]

Good to see this is picking up...lol.


Russia and France have always had a relativly close relationship with Iraq, So i know why they oppose the war.

However, All I am trying to point out is basically, Have you seen for yourself training grounds in Iraq, or have you seen the paper trail linking Iraqi Money to Terrorism?

How do you know there are training camps? The News reports? The Papers? I hope you know the Press is controlled by the Government, and it's not like they haven't lied to us before-even it has been in our best interest.

As for Korea, I am not scared of nukes being launched, i am scared of the threat of them being launched. If they become a threat what do we do? Iraq is a threat, and they can barely launch a missle far enough to hit Isreal, we are still in there????

Are you saying that North Korea doesn't Warrant Military Action if they have functioning nukes? They don't have a good human rights record either, the country is in darkness for goodness sakes! If military action is needed, I am scared, a million man army?? wether or not they are well trained isn't a big question because the sheer numbers make them a problem for our inlisted military men and women. DRAFT????

I am forced to watch Fox news 4 times a week for 6 hours. I have never seen anything other than reports that their are training facilities in Iraq.....I did see back a year ago of the one in Alabama. I saw pictures, and video of Arab like people storming rooms pretending to have women in children in them.

Remember now, I am with you guys, I agree that we should be in Iraq for us and for the Iraqi people. I just like to play the other card at times.

To be honest I just don't think that this war with Iraq does or should have anything to do with Terrorism.
Just trying to make a point that just because something is said in the news and other media, especially if it makes a very good case for our cause, you should still be skeptical.....
-jim

[stilllearnin]

[quote]However, All I am trying to point out is basically, Have you seen for yourself training grounds in Iraq, or have you seen the paper trail linking Iraqi Money to Terrorism? [/quote] you haven't seen Terik Azizs (however you spell his name) or the information minister from Iraq come right out and say they will be attacking us here,with marters? aka terrorists and/or suicide bombers

or haven't you seen over the last 12+ years our news footage (be skeptical, I see that point) ? BUT If our news footage isn't enough what about the Iraqi news channel footage? I doubt they're just begging for a beating showing their "organizations trained to carry out attacks on western infidels" yeah that news is controled by them but add the footage the Turks,the kurds or Al Jazera have you get 5 different sources 1 could make it sound good for us, 1 could make an attempt to scare us I guess, but what's in it for the other three to lie?


[quote]Are you saying that North Korea doesn't Warrant Military Action if they have functioning nukes?[/quote] No,I'm not saying that. I am saying I think that situation has a real good chance of being a case of them knowing we'll pay (the whole UN not just the u.s.) and I think they're mostly showing off and holding out to see what they can get.

[quote]DRAFT????[/quote] BLAH alot of people will be called by guard or reserve duty before that happens - I guess it may be a bigger worry for people afraid to be drafted <-- not anthing against those people.

[jdicicco]

you haven't seen Terik Azizs (however you spell his name) or the information minister from Iraq come right out and say they will be attacking us here,with marters? aka terrorists and/or suicide bombers

What I have seen is more Maryters attacking our troops, I didn't see any information of attacks on US soil. (I probably did miss that)

or haven't you seen over the last 12+ years our news footage (be skeptical, I see that point) ? BUT If our news footage isn't enough what about the Iraqi news channel footage? I doubt they're just begging for a beating showing their "organizations trained to carry out attacks on western infidels" yeah that news is controled by them but add the footage the Turks,the kurds or Al Jazera have you get 5 different sources 1 could make it sound good for us, 1 could make an attempt to scare us I guess, but what's in it for the other three to lie?

--That doesn't do much for me, we train to attack in different enviornments and different countries all the time. I want them to find an alqueda cell there with many officials being arrested, and account books their with Iraqi Deposits........Then I will say that they are funding and harboring terrorists.

Remember the News story of the one legged Bin Laden aparently was treated at an Iraqi Hospital? What happened to that?


BLAH alot of people will be called by guard or reserve duty before that happens - I guess it may be a bigger worry for people afraid to be drafted <-- not anthing against those people. [/B][/QUOTE]

...not scared about being drafted, just that when you draft, and send people to a month of basic training and weapons training you end up with a very unskilled force fighting in a very bad situation- See Korea and Vietnam. Many Unskilled men went into Vietnam and lost thier lives fighting a war we weren't trained or ready to fight.

[jdicicco]

Obviously I didn't do the quote thing right, Sorry guys hopefully it makes sense if not i will try it later.
-Jim

[cichlidfish]

Just click on the quote button to use quotes instead of the post reply. Anyway, come'on you've got to be kidding if you really can NOT believe that IRAQ is tied to terrorist groups. And what stillearning referred to, is on record, taped, IRAQ representatives I think even their vice prez have clearly stated that they will use suicide bombers and urge their people and all muslims worldwide to wage "Jihad" on the US both in IRAQ and inside the US. They really don't hide or "deny" that they support terrorism. Did you read my previous post completely, about Yousef terrorist with clear IRAQI ties? ie the precursor to 9/11 which previous administration apparently did not take seriously.
Also, of course I don't just watch local channels to get informed, I watch, and mainly read a variety of sources to get a better picture. I have always been very interested in the Middle East. I can tell you that in my opinion IRAQ is being delt with in part on behalf of Israel. Saddam has always wanted to be the hero leading the rest of the Arab and/or Muslim states into battle to destroy Israel. He believes he is the new "Nebuchadnezzar"(He is especially known for his conquest of Jerusalem and for the rebuilding of Babylon.-around 500-600BC)

About Vietnam, I'm very dissappointed in the way the veterans were treated, I especially despise Fonda and the detrimental effects she had during and after the war. I also think that the US could have won the war if the military was fully supported and if they didn't have their "hands tied", anyway that's another issue should probably go on a separate thread.

[jdicicco]

Oh Isreal is the reason that the Arab world does not like The USA, I believe that is common knowledge.

It's been a while since I had my International Order Class so I am a little rusty on some facts, however, If I Recall, we made Saddam, much like other dictators we have taken out of Power.
I am not kidding about the terrorist links, I am serious, Just because Saddam urges a Jihad from the Muslim world does not connect him to 911, Hell he's not a nice human being, he's a tryant who murders his own country men, women and children. That is terrorism right there, But to make it seem that make a statement that( not saying cichlidfish or Stilllearnin did) Iraq was behind 9/11, and that is a main reason for going to war with them is a lie and a rally cry to help get the anti war people with Bush and his agenda. (in the poll i voted i support bush)

I think we disagree a few things that might not be clear and that is making this harder. lol

I am clearly outnumbered and It's hard to dispute such a topic that involves a lot of inconclusive evidence, because if there was a direct link between Iraq and 9/11 don't ya think we would have been there 9/12???


-Jim

[cichlidfish]

Again Jim you've made no comment on the evidence relating to the world trade center bombing and Yousef, the terrorist with clear IRAQI links. Anyway, I agree with you that the "main" reason for us going to war with IRAQ is not their affiliation with terrorism, note that I'm not saying they're not involved I'm convinced they are but that as President Bush said, the objective is to "disarm" IRAQ, prevent them from putting together atomic weapons, destroying their major weapons capabilities and most importantly get rid of Saddam. I do not recall Rumsfield or President Bush saying that this was is simply just part of our war on terrorism.

Also, Saddam came to power in 1979(internal coup)(during revolution in Iran), I think he had been vice prez in Iraq since around 1974. I recall that he also tried to assasinate the prez in 1959. I think Jimmy Carter was in office when he came to power and some say the US helped him in his coup. But yes, later on the US did sell weapons to both Iran and Iraq. Saddam invaded Iran, was a tough war contrary to what Saddam anticipated although the Iranians accepted the UN resolution for peace, so I guess you could say Iraq kind of won. Anyway Saddam did bomb his own people(and also the Kurds) even with poisonous gas.(close to 20,000 Iraqi people killed)

Also, Saddam is ruthless, megalomaniac but he is also pretty smart/sly. He knows not to use chemical/biological weapons when he could or to be involved in terrorism which can be linked to him during war which would only make his defeat more decisive. (ie the US would use higher powered bombs and weapons, we have "regular" bombs now that are as powerfull as atomic bombs.) Like the "Palestinians" he has learned how to "help" the UN to help him.

Also, don't think that Israel is the only reason the Arab world hates the USA. That is not true. The Islamic Jihad cry has always been "First the Jew, then the Christians." (Islam was spread by the sword as you know I'm sure...) The fundamental Muslims hate the US, if we allow or help them to "obliterate" Israel and the Jews off the face of the Earth don't think they're going to LOVE the US and be our best friends. No, we will then be their #1 target instead of Israel. Hmmm....if we go further with this I'd feel better moving the thread to admins/mods or private forum

[stilllearnin]

[quote]I didn't see any information of attacks on US soil.[/quote] There have been quit a few "attempts" since you don't belive the U.S. news (like I said before,don't blame you for being skeptical to a point) - refer to the mexico news and the information they also reported in the last few weeks about the iraqi's they arrested planning on attacking nuclear power plants in Arizona and the iraqi's also foiled? last week trying to pay be smuggled into Texas to assinate Bush.
Venezuela also gave reports that Al-quiade and Ansar al-Islam (yes Iraq govt sponsored terrorists) documnets and plans were found with specific threats against the U.S., one threat was supposed to again be against Arizona Nuclear power plants.The other threats were supposedly not released publiclicly to avoid triggering or keying terrorists cells to attacks.
Czech officials have also told our government and stated publically that Muhammad Atta, (one of the heads of the 9/11 attacks) met with Iraqi intelligence agents in Prague months before the hijackings.


[quote]I want them to find an alqueda cell there with many officials being arrested, and account books their with Iraqi Deposits........Then I will say that they are funding and harboring terrorists. [/quote] so, were Abu Mussab Zarqawi and Sadam talking about weapons to plan a hunting trip? Iraq their self has admitted that Al-quiade and Ansar al-Islam has cells in iraq but when we get intellegence that they work together, suddenly they don't exist,hmmm sounds the same someone hideing their buddy from the cops. But now that we took over the Ansar al-Islam compound the other day and all the Al-quiade documents were confiscated can it still be denied? yeah I know they didn't "catch" Al-quiade (maybe?) but if we did I doubt right now many Al-quiade members are volunteering the fact that they are Al-quiade. <-- and thats another thing not just claimed by the u.s. or u.s. news.


[quote]But to make it seem that make a statement that( not saying cichlidfish or Stilllearnin did) Iraq was behind 9/11, and that is a main reason for going to war with them is a lie and a rally cry to help get the anti war people with Bush and his agenda.[/quote] Lie? I don't think so,maybe exagerated slightly.Still odd no matter what,if he had nothing to do with it,the amount of murals painted in military places and terrorist compounds( in Iraq that show the twin tower attacks being glorified with Sadams ugly mug smileing in the same murals,yeah they hate us ,they weren't saddened etc.. but for them claiming they were trying to fit into the world and that they had nothing to do with it, thats an odd way to show it.
Hmm their terrorsists and a government could have the same painters! Thats enough link for me LOL


Ever notice the U.N. also "declared a war on terrorism" ? BUT in a country run and controlled by military namely Iraq,their terrorist cells operate freely and their terrorist cells are working with their army fighting the coalition now! They still claim now they don't support terrorism? but their information minister and the "vice president" praise the resistance of their para-military groups,yep the same groups like Ansar al-Islam the ones the rest of the world calls terrorists

[quote]That is terrorism right there,[/quote] then what else needs to be said? or proven? We said we were wageing "war on terrorism" not just revenge against the 9/11 attacks


[quote]and account books their with Iraqi Deposits[/quote]
HAHAHA now com'on, if I can hide $ from my girlfriend I think they can deciently hide their money from people too


[quote]don't ya think we would have been there 9/12???[/quote] No,weather people think Bush is to pro war or not , we knew Al-quiade was the ones who carried out the attacks on 9/11 but we weren't there on 9/12 either , <--- hmm but anyone else rember when the Taliban said they didn't harbor or work with terrorists or Al-quiade? If my memory serves me correctly,didn't the Taliban actually try to claim to want to work with us until we demanded they turn over Osama ?:confused:

[quote]Vietnam. Many Unskilled men went into Vietnam and lost thier lives fighting a war we weren't trained or ready to fight[/quote] always a many sided argument but just my quick views on that one -
One: I still think the [u]only[/u] reason we got involved was to save france because they begged for help,yeah the same France that's back stabbing us now!
Two: Yes we got beat up, but I don't think it was because we had a poorly trained army - we got smoked because to many people wanted re-elected so they basically tied our troops hands to try to keep their jobs by keeping protestors happy, alot of people disagree (which is their right and oponion) but if the order was passed to nuke Vietnam (which it was) and there would have been no protesting,I still don't think we'd of even worried about troops fighting there.

But just due to technology you really actually can't compare any old war to a current one,rember they tried that during "desert storm";)

[jdicicco]

I am just going to state few quick things....

First I am outnumber and have no support so clearly this isn't working well for me....lol

Second, Saddam is Anti Muslim- Did he not kill over 300,000 Shite(spelling?) Muslims? So this is just something to think about him helping the 9/11 Terrorists-even if it's a common goal to take down the USA?

Third, Clearly you two have a better side to debate, there is almost no way for me to state actual information that can be quoted and documented, Because if there was such proof that there is no link to 9/11 and Iraq that news would never get to us.
(I doubt either of you disagree that we control the news)

Forth, This was pretty fun, however i have been maxed out on points to make, I guess we will just have to see.

-Jim

[stilllearnin]

[quote]I guess we will just have to see.[/quote] yep only 19 miles until Baghdad now


[quote]Second, Saddam is Anti Muslim- Did he not kill over 300,000 Shite(spelling?) Muslims?[/quote] Na,I think he's more Anti-humanitarian. Yes he killed lots of sheite muslim's but he also killed, Shiite (slightly different somehow) marshlanders, krudish ezidismist's (I think thats what it's called), kurdish catholics and he's defineately not for being nice towards jewish or bahai people in israel either.
But he has no problem calling on muslims for a jihad, either way you look at it at least so far we all agree that
1) he's a crackpot
2) he's got to go

[cichlidfish]

From what I heard 4,000 devout Muslim suicide bombers have supposedly come to volunteer to die defending Saddam. Saddam is mainly for himself although he definitely embraces Muslims, he is not Anti-Muslim. He sided with Sunni Muslims himself, the Sunni and Shiites never liked each other too much but they would unite against common enemies.

Also, again I've given what I thought were good links showing IRAQI involvement in terrorism. I have absolutely no doubt that IRAQ harbors terrorists, condones and encourages their actions and even helps them either with weapons and/or training or financially. I had enough proof of this too be convinced even before this war, and now even more evidence is being discovered. "Because if there was such proof that there is no link to 9/11 and Iraq that news would never get to us.-Jim" I don't see how it would be possible to come up with evidence that there is no link with terrorism, when there EXISTS much proof that there IS a link. In order for your proof to mean anything it would HAVE TO DISPROVE/NEGATE EVERY AND ALL OTHER PROOFS which link IRAQ to terrorism.

Don't feel bad though, doesn't mean you're a bad debater it's just that we have a lot more supporting evidence which can not be wiped clean/negated, the proof is overwhelming. But again, I agree with you, the President has NOT said that this war with IRAQ is mainly or only about terrorism, but it will definitely be a help to the war on terrorism as well. Remember the war started because Saddam ignored the ultimatum....

[jdicicco]

[url]http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s819666.htm[/url]

Just something small....but this is the only point I was trying to make.....lol

-Jim

[cichlidfish]

Jim notice that is says no firm evidence that Al Qaeda members are "fighting" alongside Iraqi forces in SOUTHERN IRAQ but that they did encounter such forces in the NORTH, and it does not say that there is no evidence that IRAQ has links to TERRORISM which has already been proven. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that they will eventually find Al Qaeda members involved in the actual fighting throughout IRAQ north AND south, especially if there are more suicide bombers....

"The US military has no firm evidence that groups linked to Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda movement are fighting alongside Iraqi forces in southern Iraq, a senior US commander said.
US forces had conducted operations in northern Iraq against "elements that we believe are aligned with Al Qaeda," Air Force Major General Victor Renuart, director of operations at US Central Command, said.

But he said "we've not seen any firm indication that those forces are in the south fighting".

"My sense is that it's not beyond the realm of possibility."

The United States on March 21 and 22, at the start of its war on Iraq, launched air strikes on an enclave maintained in Kurdish-held northern Iraq by Ansar al-Islam, which models itself on Afghanistan's deposed Taliban militia.

Washington says the group is linked both to the Al Qaeda network and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein."