CichlidFish.com - Fish That Think.

If Descartes is correct "I think, therefore I am", which i think he is, then what about the problem of sleep? If there are two planes (which I think is correct), the physical and metaphysical, then why do we lose consciencness during sleep? Why, when the body requires rest, does it "shut off" thought process (or, rather, radically change it)? If thought is metaphysical (beyond the five senses), then why is it's function dependent on the physical body's need for rest? Note that I'm not asking about brain function, I'm referring to thought, or conscienceness -----

--Mark

Well I am curious about those "planes", are they east bound or west? How fast?.....lol

Personally my opinion about sleep, as a relationship to thought.
The Brain consists of three major parts first the Cerebellum, (controls movement and balance etc) the Medulla oblongata the brain stem( controls the autonomous body functions i.e. heart, breathing etc) and finally the largest portion the Cerebrum which controls the five sense’s and is the storages for memory, and of course the voice inside our head (thoughts). During sleep the Cerebrum shuts down some of its functions or inputs if you wish to call them that. Since our thoughts are set in an environment, that is beyond our control, Brain function and thoughts are linked, and there is no way to separate them.
Lets compare sleeping with doing a defrag on a hard drive.
The quickest way to defrag a hard drive is to shut down all none necessary programs (or functions). This allows the hard drive to be defragged, and not worry about keeping track of new data, file movement, etc.
It is known that during sleep our brains shut down our higher functions, leaving only the basic of conscious operating, commonly called the fight/flight reflex system. During this time, our upper functions, (thoughts) are left to free wheel, with no real control,
there is no input, of a real time physical type, you could now say the thoughts are metaphysical .
This then should follow out the reason, that if this happens during sleep, why could it not also be done during a conscious state of mind.
Then again maybe those planes are going north/south??

Originally posted by Fuzzy
. . .you could now say the thoughts are metaphysical. . .

All thoughts are always metaphysical. Think a thought: "I'm reading a post". Your thought cannot be seen, felt, heard, tasted, or smelled -- but it's there and real. Metaphysical. I'm thinking, however, that the mere fact of self-awareness or "conscienceness" proves the existence of "something" beyond our physical reality. (God? Energy? Light?) In other words, if we are self-aware we are not mere machinery. (If the opposite were true, then computers are actually living beings --)The biological functions we experience cannot create our sense of being. Yet, we are so tied to our bodies that during sleep we become unconscous while our bodies renew. How? If Descartes is correct, wouldn't we remain "aware" during sleep? Perhaps we are aware, but in a metaphysical world, and unable to comprehend it when we come back to our "senses" in the morning?

How can we be "spirits" (for lack of a better word) and yet be so bound to our body's physiology?

--Mark:cool:

Mark, I've thought about that myself for some time. If we have spirits why do we not feel/see/comprehend without the need for our body. When one is knocked unconscious it is the body that is knocked out not the spirit so why is it that the spirit can not communicate to the body/brain events that had transpired while knocked out, passed out, in deep sleep or in a coma?

Can man 'work' towards developing a more sensitive link between his mind, soul/spirt and body? Have some 'enlightened' figures achieved such a melding of the spirit and body? Is ascension to be had upon achieving this meld to the fullest? (Are the Vulcans up one on us here? ) Would this give us a complete duality such as the light itself as photon particles and yet as waves. Could we defy gravity, move through the physical and decide at will to what degree to be affected by the physical world? One would surmise that immortality would be but one of the benefits.

Or is there nothing but the physical? Nothing but the present and nothing in the future.

Why, when the body requires rest, does it "shut off" thought process (or, rather, radically change it)?

Because we as humans are a brain weak/lazy species

If we only use 7% of our brain as science claims it has to rest at some time.

Maybe we could train our brains to sleep in halves like dolphins

then why do we lose consciencness during sleep?

consciencness - as in all thought? - I don't think we do. Ever wake up with an anwser or solution to something you were trying to figure out before? Talk in your sleep? (that one used to get me in lots of trouble) Sleep walk ?

If there are two planes (which I think is correct), the physical and metaphysical

I'm one for believeing there are more then two.
If theres only two? Where does things like people levitating objects fit in ? (And no I'm not talking about hoaxes or David Blane type stuff,I mean the ones actually proven.) It's done by thought but it can be seen which goes along with Marks thought "All thoughts are always metaphysical."

so why is it that the spirit can not communicate to the body/brain events that had transpired while knocked out, passed out, in deep sleep or in a coma?

but yet some people who are in long comas claim to hear and rember lots of what was said to them

Nothing but the present and nothing in the future.

No - I've seen fossils and old family pictures, so I also belive in the past

If we have spirits why do we not feel/see/comprehend without the need for our body

same reason you don't drive without being in your car

Can man 'work' towards developing a more sensitive link between his mind, soul/spirt and body?

Most "men" (humans) - NOPE , our brains are too "spiritually" corrupt (thought wise) and biased.

without debateing specific religions or trying to degrade anyones religion
Think about how people in general react to "spirits" It's preprogramed ! The easyist way to see this is faiths -
Ever meet a "christian" who saw allah and had a life changeing experiance? , How many muslims claim to have though?
Ever meet a "muslim" who saw jesus ? ,How many "christians claim to have though?
Ever read of any old "old world people" who had visions of eagles and buffalos telling them things?,How many Native Americans claim to have though?
Ever read of any "pre discovery" christians or muslims in america ?

NOPE
And I'm not takeing either side but
Isn't it odd people always "experiance" spiritual figures from their own faith but not others ? This is why I say we're spiritually biased

same line of thinking -
The anwsers will be different for different people and lots of us will think some anwseres are stupid while others would belive in them fully -


If someone told you they talked to a burning bush. Would you laugh,think they're nuts or belive them ?

If your daughter was pregnant and swore she was a virgin and said how great of a thing immaculate conception was. Would you think it was a miricle or think she was lieing?
If you read the same thing in a book whould you belive it? Would it matter which book it was in?


See the pattern? It's all spiritually releated but common sense or facts doesn't always effect the anwser or thinking around it - Just my Oponion.

Originally posted by stilllearnin
I'm one for believeing there are more then two. (planes . . .)

No, there's necessarily only two -- physical (that which is perceived by our 5 senses) and metaphysical (that which is not perceived by our five senses). Anything else, other "planes" "realities" or whatever are part of "metaphysical". For example, the Christian idea of a Holy Spirit and a trinity, and the human soul and spirit, are metaphysical (apart from the five senses). Anyone who is able to actually levitate something is manipulating the metaphysical to appear in the physical.

STAR TREK IS RIGHT! (Maybe . . .) With "beaming" people and items and with their replicators -- What if everything, both physical and metaphysical, is simply energy in different forms; some forms we can see and explain, some we can see the result of and not explain (like gravity, for example -- science knows that gravity works but does not know the physical link that pulls items closer together. They can't find a reason why we don't simply float away from the Earth --). Energy can transfer from physical to other states of physical (like when you burn a log in a fireplace), can it transfer from physical to metaphysical? And vice-versa? Can we create a "replicator" like the ones on Deep Space 9 (or the Enterprise) that can pull raw energy out of the metaphysical and create Earl Grey Tea?

Or, is it possible that there is no such thing as the metaphysical and we humans simply lack the organs to perceive other physical things? We can taste, smell, feel, hear and see -- but what if there's other physical "realities" (or whatever) that we don't believe exist simply because we don't have the ability to "see" or "feel" them because we lack the correct organ? Hmmmm.....

If there's a tie between energy and physical, as is the case in the star trek fantasy, then there would be the explanation as to why our metaphysical "spirits" lose cognitive reasoning when we sleep or are knocked out. Metaphysical and Physical really are the same thing, energy, but our limited senses do not allow us to perceive it all. Then, when we "die", we really don't, because energy really never dies -- it only changes.

So with this post I've proven that Star Trek is real and that Reincarnation is a fact:confused:

--Mark:cool:

You brought up gravity. A very interesting phenomenon indeed. It really still is a mystery, it seems to be instantaneous, ie much faster than the speed of light. In fact some scientists believe that the speed of light itself used to be MUCH faster in the past. This decrease in the speed of light, c decay/cdk, may account for the 'redshift' we took to mean an expanding universe. ( http://www.setterfield.org/Redshift.htm#whatredshift )
If this is true, than many scientific facts or theories we took for granted could quite wrong. Personally I believe it to be a very plausible theory, I did a lot of research into this some years ago. We may be in a static or even shrinking universe and not an expanding one, though it can still be expanding even with cdk.(then the redshift effect would be produced by both expansion and cdk...). Einstein's 'holy grail' equation has eluded us still....string theory, M theory, and we're still far from the goal

Joe, a most interesting link. I have often had wonders about
the expanding universe. One difficulty I have always seen, is the fact that what we look at is ,first the past, and second ,we are only viewing the past as it appears today. In order to understand, observation must happen over a reasonable period of time. All our current references to time and space are only based on a period of (being very generous with time here) 2000 years or so. Considering a universe of an age of even only 1 Billion years, we are only glimpsing a 2x10-5th percentage. (2 to the negative tenth). One problem I have had, and still do, is using a mathematical approach, to find an answer. Then do a physical observation, in order to prove the mathematical theory.

Mark.
I think there might be a misconception in the term metaphysical.
The word Metaphysical, comes from the base word Metaphysic, which comes from the writings of Aristotle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics#The_origin_of_the_word_.27metaphysics.27
The common meaning of Metaphysical now (at least the one I used) is beyond the physical.
Since we think, and we perceive what we think. This is physical. It is based upon input of a physical nature. I do not follow the belief in metaphysics of the mind-body problem. I know I think, there for I am. However I can still not feel an apples redness.
I know the apple is red, I can see it. But I cannot feel it, or smell it or touch it. I know my thoughts are a series of electrical impulses generated in my brain. I cannot touch, feel or smell or see these either, however people have been stimulated during brain surgery, and have smelled an odor, or have seen a colour. This proves to me, that thought is not metaphysical, but I have still not met or heard of anyone who can touch the redness of an apple.
This leads me back however to sleep, our thoughts then are not controlled by physical inputs, to me this then meets the criteria of metaphysics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind-body_problem

Originally posted by cichlidfish
You brought up gravity. A very interesting phenomenon indeed. It really still is a mystery, it seems to be instantaneous, ie much faster than the speed of light. In fact some scientists believe that the speed of light itself used to be MUCH faster in the past. This decrease in the speed of light, c decay/cdk, may account for the 'redshift' we took to mean an expanding universe. ( http://www.setterfield.org/Redshift.htm#whatredshift )
If this is true, than many scientific facts or theories we took for granted could quite wrong. Personally I believe it to be a very plausible theory, I did a lot of research into this some years ago. We may be in a static or even shrinking universe and not an expanding one, though it can still be expanding even with cdk.(then the redshift effect would be produced by both expansion and cdk...). Einstein's 'holy grail' equation has eluded us still....string theory, M theory, and we're still far from the goal

This is an excellent post, and reveals the absurd arrogance of science -- Science thinks that it has finally gotten it right in all areas it researches, but is in fact as naive as ever. For example, science is trying to discover how we came to exist and is considering Special Creation and Evolution as the only two possibilities!! You may ask, "Well, what other possibilities exist?" The answer is I don't know -- Nobody knows -- But science has believed the assumption that Creation and Evolution are the only two choices. How unscientific!! The answer may be something that we've never conceived of yet! Something . . . metaphysical perhaps - - - But, if I stand on the top of a mountain and look down into the valley, it certainly looks like the planet is flat!!

Originally posted by Fuzzy

Mark.
I think there might be a misconception in the term metaphysical.
The word Metaphysical, comes from the base word Metaphysic, which comes from the writings of Aristotle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics#The_origin_of_the_word_.27metaphysics.27
The common meaning of Metaphysical now (at least the one I used) is beyond the physical.
Since we think, and we perceive what we think. This is physical.

"Since we think" -- This is physical -- "and we percieve what we think" -- This is metaphysical. The brain activity itself is quite physical -- but the perception we have of the activity isn't, even though we know it's cause. The thought you are thinking right now ("Mark is an idiot -- He's finally gone off the deep end -- poor Oscars!") is caused by brain activity, but the perception of the thought is not seen, heard, felt, smelled, or tasted -- metaphysical, by your definition "beyond the physical". That perception of thought, not the physical thought itself, is the root of René Descartes "I think -- Therefore I am". That perception of thought is our closest link to even the existance of metaphysical -- and the most easily studied. --

"I eat..........so I get fat." Fuzzy


One of the interesting things in discussing metaphysics, is there
is not limit to the range of views. I don't think Mark is off the deepend anymore then myself. However we are in different ends of the pool.