CichlidFish.com - Fish That Think.

I think I have recently idnetified that I have 1 male gold oscar, 1 male tiger oscar, and 1 female tiger oscar. since the tigers are most likely siblings I wont try and breed them. This brought up an interesting question. What would happen when two differant varieties of oscar are bred. Will they be a hybrid of the two or will half the babies look like mom and half like dad? Does anyone know the answer to this one?

Adam

Ive never done oscars, but with angels Ive bred a marble with a koi and 30% were marble, 30% were koi and 40 % were a cross I called gold dusted marbels (since that is the color pattern they resembled) Then through selectivly picking a youngster and breeding it back to one parent you get more of that calor variation in the fry . The next time you select another with great colar and breed it back to the last parent with the color variation you are trying to isolate. Ever 3-4 times of being bred back you introduce (preferably a wild caught specimen) into the line to strengthen it. Most of the fish are probaly going to be like the father and mother the first time, with a few taking on a pattern mixture. But every spawn should have a more fry with the color patterns you are trying to greate in it.

It all goes back to the genetics of the parents though Ex: What was the color patterns of the pair that spawned your male? female? What were the color patterns of the fish that spawned the granparents? The only way to know for sure is if youve raised them since fry and selectecd the fish bred them back ect.

I hope i have not confused you. Im trying to be basic in terms. Genetics are an extremely fun thing to get into, but also complicated. It involves lots of time (to do precise record keeping) and space...But it would be well worth it if you isolate a color variation (goldxtiger) so that they would throw true everytime.

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Candice

That makes sense... I remember my HS genetics lessons But I have heard from those who have breed pink and striped convicts that they dont hybridize half are like the mother and half are like the father, but other fish, like angels and discus do take traits from both mother and father, creating a hybrid. I would be very interested to know which way Oscars lean... Hopefully soon I may be able to shed some light as I think I have a female tiger, and a male gold... I just hope I have sexed them correctly.

Adam

Actually, with convicts you'll find that it's very hard to ever get a pure pink or pure 'striped'. The fry from my male pink(white) convict and female striped convict were mostly striped but pretty "washed-out". Almost all had stripes though on some only lightly visible. You can crack open those genetics books you never read look for the recessive/dominant sections. ie RRxrr or RrxRR etc.... point being is different genotype may still produce same phenotype(appearance). For example let's say a "gene" coding for color-pattern has two alleles that are identical, be they both dominant or both recessive. You would say RR is homozygous and dominant and for recessive alleles you would use lowercase ie rr. If your fish has Rr alleles coding in a gene for a specific trait you would say that it is heterozygous for that trait since one allele is dominant(R) and the other allele(r) is recessive. Let's say that we look at the "striped-pattern" gene. Let's assume AA for the gene gives the "striped" phenotype and so does Aa since the dominant "A" takes precedence and also gives the "striped" phenotype. Say that BB allele codes for "pink convict". So BB and Bb will both produce "pink convict" coding in that gene.
With bb (both recessive) so "pink convict" phenotype is not expressed. As is with "aa" where both alleles are also homozygous recessive and "striped-convict" phenotype is not expressed. Let's say you cross a male pink convict aaBb with a potent female(striped) with a genotype of AAbb. In this case the male(aaBb) can contribute two different "variations" of alleles, either aB or ab to the offspring. The female(AAbb) can only contribue one combo which is Ab. So if you remember your Punnet Squares:
fromMale->|---aB---|---ab---|
----------------------------|
-----Ab---|--AaBb--|--Aabb--|

So basically half the fry should have the AaBb genotype and half the fry the Aabb genotype. Now about the "phenotype", half the fry(Aabb) should look more or less like honest to goodness regular "striped" convicts because of the Aa where one allele is dominant for the "striped" so it wins against the homozygous "recessive" bb gene for "pink". But how about the AaBb?? Here BOTH genes are turned on somewhat, Aa for Striped and Bb for "pink". Both are heterozygous having one dominant and one recessive allele. These will be the really "washed-out" striped convicts, or the fry which look like "pink"(white) convicts but seem to have some kind of light stripes barely apparent. We could go on and say that some "genes" are more "powerfull" than others. Maybe, just maybe the "striped" gene is more powerfull than the "pink" gene so that even if in genotype(AaBb) they are equal, that in PHENOTYPE(appearance) it looks as if "striped" has the upper hand by a little.

WHAT the heck got into me!!! OK, well folks use info at your own risk, I hope I didn't make any big blunders, I havn't done any biology for long time. (For those interested, my BS was in Biology, specializations in biochemistry and molecular biology.)

Hehe, hey if you're really bored try crossing the FRY from the previous example like an AaBb with another AaBb or with an Aabb.(For AaBb X AaBb ,you'll have 16 different results since each parent can give four different variations of alleles AB, Ab, aB, and ab. So 1/16th of the fry will be AABB and 1/16th aabb.) Man, and I hated this stuff in school!!

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Joe
www.cichlidfish.com

[This message has been edited by cichlidfish (edited 10-16-2001).]

[This message has been edited by cichlidfish (edited 10-16-2001).]

Joe, you did exactly what I was trying to avoid when helping Adam...He probaly thinks your speaking german! Completely out of luck one of my convicts fry from a spawn ahwhile ago turned out to be completely blue (like a regular color crayon blue) . . . unfortunatly I have never been able to reproduce it in any of his offspring though I tried. Probaly due to it being a mutation Vs. a true genetic line in the fish. But he is a nice addition to my home tank. Thats one that I shall never use as a feeder.

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Candice

Hi Candice,

Hehe know what you mean, I don't know what hit me How about breeding your "blue" convict? can't help it, you got me curious

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Joe
www.cichlidfish.com

LOL well I generally concider myself a pretty smart guy but by the end of the post Aa's and BB's were circling my head like a bunch of vultures I pretty much get the drift of what you are saying as I actually did pay attention in Bio class I really liked it. Ok with that out of the way, what in your opinion would the hybrid cross of a gold (the one in the getmoney1 post in the oscar forum) with a tiger? would the tiger colorations end up a much more gold color? or would you have a gold background with the red tiger markings over the top? I know this is just guess work, but has anyone ever crossed varieties?

Adam

Hi Adam,

I wouldn't know really since I don't know the actual "real" facts and details about the genes for the color-patterns in oscars and I havn't bred anything but tigers with tigers. If I were to guess though I'd probably say that some would look like tigers, some like gold, and others a kind of "combination" of both colors/patterns.

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Joe
www.cichlidfish.com

I can breed the blue convict, but his color has so far never shown in his fry.

Oh, seems like I hadn't noticed you already bred it and no offspring followed suit. What did you breed it with, a regular 'striped' convict?

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Joe
www.cichlidfish.com

Yeah, the second time I tried to get him to go with a pink, but he would not fertilize her eggs. He was totaly indifferent to her prescence acctually.

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Candice

I guess they don't like "arranged" marriages

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Joe
www.cichlidfish.com

joe i think it was you who wanted pics of the foreplay? well my babies are not shy if you want? just don't know how to send..........they still have not produced yet but when i took the angels out well you know how they get mad

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noangel

Hi noangel,

Well you can just email me or upload pics at www.cichlidfish.com/upload.html
that link is where anyone can upload pics etc...

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Joe
www.cichlidfish.com

sorry joe,, dummie is still here,,i tried to send but they are in zip form. i only know how to foward.

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noangel