CichlidFish.com - Fish That Think.

How do you heat the tanks? Is the flow slow enough that regular heaters do the trick? --:cool:

Mark how big are you oscars and how long you had them? And what is maint schedule?And since you put me in it lol i do think bio whells are way over rated, but a true wet dry is a different story. I have made a few sumps and trickles and they far out perform a wheel of anykind.
As a 55 for 2 O's go,I think it is cruel personally[Seeing my monster in a 80] They cant possibly be comfortable and turn even, without effort. I never heard any nitrate readings either ? In 2 days your trates gotta be over 80ppm.Just curious to maint. and all you do [have to do!]
Since i lost my big O as i posted [jumper 15"] i got another. I have one O and a JD in an 80 and he grows alot more than 1/2 inch a month , he doubled in size in 2 weeks.
I guess what im getting down to is , you can keep 4 O in a 55 and they will live,but they will be stunted and unheathy and unhappy in the longrun, Nitrate spikes hard and burns the gills[like breathing fire] Curious to hear you water readings before a wchange with a master test kit i hope, no strips[unaccurate].

Originally posted by GMAN
Mark how big are you oscars and how long you had them?

Fred and Ethyl, in one of the tanks, along with Ricky in the second tank, are all between 10 and 11 inches (not counting tail) and I've had them for around 7 or 8 years. Lucy was the replacement for my favorite Oscar ever, Felixia, and is just about 7 or 8 inches and is close to 3 years.

And what is maint schedule?

In the Oscar tanks, I pull and clean the filter's elements every other day, and do a 30% water change approximately monthly (including a good gravel vacuum). But I think the two most important "maintenance" tasks are to sit patiently with them daily and feed them a little at a time until they stop taking food. If you toss in a bunch of food all at once, it wrecks your water quality in no time at all. Overfeeding an aquarium is the easiest way to wreck it! My second important "maintenance" task is to keep the glass invisible and the aquarium room large. Meaning, keep the tank lighting dimmer than the room lighting, and facing the aquariums so they look directly out into the most spacious area of the room. When this is done, the Oscars (and any other territorial species) mark the room and not the aquarium. Meaning, basically, that they think they are in the room, not in the aquarium. This is an old man's Oscar keeping trick and keeps their stress level very low.

And since you put me in it lol i do think bio whells are way over rated, but a true wet dry is a different story. I have made a few sumps and trickles and they far out perform a wheel of anykind.

I disagree. I think biowheels are a true wet/dry, supplying a constand velocity of aquarium water over extremely well oxygenated surfaces. I think you may be alone in your opinion here --

As a 55 for 2 O's go,I think it is cruel personally[Seeing my monster in a 80] They cant possibly be comfortable and turn even, without effort. I never heard any nitrate readings either ? In 2 days your trates gotta be over 80ppm.

Naw, it's impossible. If you do something silly like dump a half a jar of food into your tank and don't net it out, first you're going to see your ammonia jump, then your nitrite, and then your nitrate -- and that process would probably take about 4 weeks. It's identical to cycling an aquarium when you first start it up. Anyone who sees a lot of nitrate in their tank spent a lot of time letting it develop. It builds up at the end of the cycle, and it's impossible to go from zero to 80ppm in just two days.

I guess what im getting down to is , you can keep 4 O in a 55 and they will live,but they will be stunted and unheathy and unhappy in the longrun

I don't keep 4 Oscars in a 55, I keep 4 in 2 55s --

Nitrate spikes hard and burns the gills[like breathing fire] Curious to hear you water readings before a wchange with a master test kit i hope, no strips[unaccurate].

I check for nitrate monthly, at water change time. In my two Oscar tanks I've never gotten any reading, same on the Goldsaum setup. On my community 55 I occasionally see a small nitrate buildup, but that is a busy, busy aquarium. I'm thinking of adding live plants to that one (they like to eat nitrate) but haven't gotten around to it yet--

As far as your thoughts that two Oscars in a 55 is "cruel", I just explained it to death in another thread and don't want to get into it again. I do not suggest that beginners do it; it takes a lot of experience to do it correctly, and a lot of care. However, the Oscars move and turn freely, are lively and happy, play and splash and eat and grow. The thing about Oscars is if they are in an environment that is cruel, or one where they are suffering, they will sulk, hide, not eat, and drift about. That's the cool thing about Oscars. If you catch someone with a 55 gallon Oscar tank, the Oscars will be telling you whether they are uncomfortable or not. Oscars have been kept successfully in 55s (or so) aquaria for a hundred years, bro, the voice of experience and history. The most experienced and respected fishkeepers in the world keep their Oscars in relatively small aquariums.

--Mark:cool:

Keep in mind you need "matched" Oscars to pull this off though. If you have territorial or aggression issues in a 55 there's not a lot of room to play with and if one loses out it really loses out in a big way. I think 75gal or similar is a lot better for 2 Oscars personally but if your O's have been together for years in a 55 then you can rule out behavioural issues. I think it's quite possible for 2 to live in a 55 OK allthough I also would not recommend that to the average person as they are usually starting with juvinile Oscars and as they hit maturity it is generally a gamble as to how they will co-exist (after all every oscar is different in nature even if you disregard problems involved with the chance of purchasing 2 males if not vented). 55 can also add problems in terms of physical dimentions and fish navigation.

I guess my 2 cents is 55 is do-able if you know what your doing and I guess the Osars can be happy and healthy but I would allways prefer a 75 or larger and think most people should strive for that as a minimum. I don't know if I'd agree that the most experienced and respected fishkeepers in the world keep their Oscars in relatively small aquariums though, that's a really big call and can be argued very easily either way.

Originally posted by fnesr
Keep in mind you need "matched" Oscars to pull this off though. If you have territorial or aggression issues in a 55. . .

Oscars are generally not territorial in that sense, nor are they aggressive. When I mention "territory" in regards to how I set up aquaria, I mean "room". I don't think Oscars aggressively defend "territories" like Dovii would, or anyway any Oscar I've kept hasn't. As far as aggressiveness, meaning general meanness, I haven't experienced that in my Oscars. Stilllearnin says he's had Oscars that get mean as they age, but none of mine have -- but he has kept probably a thousand more Os than I have - - -

. . .there's not a lot of room to play with and if one loses out it really loses out in a big way. I think 75gal or similar is a lot better for 2 Oscars personally but if your O's have been together for years in a 55 then you can rule out behavioural issues. I think it's quite possible for 2 to live in a 55 OK allthough I also would not recommend that to the average person. . .

So you're saying I'm above average?:D

. . .as they are usually starting with juvinile Oscars and as they hit maturity it is generally a gamble as to how they will co-exist (after all every oscar is different in nature even if you disregard problems involved with the chance of purchasing 2 males if not vented). 55 can also add problems in terms of physical dimentions and fish navigation.

How? An adult Oscar @ 12 inches is still only 1/4 the length of the aquarium. They "navigate" easily. Are you saying that something about the water quality in a 55 makes them lose balance and they can't navigate, or that the tank dimensions are small enough that they don't fit?

I don't know if I'd agree that the most experienced and respected fishkeepers in the world keep their Oscars in relatively small aquariums though, that's a really big call and can be argued very easily either way.

You're right. I edit my comment to read: The most experienced and respected fishkeepers that I have read or have communicated with etc. . .

--Mark:cool:

Oscars are generally not territorial in that sense, nor are they aggressive.

I disagree on that. I would rate them low interms of aggression in comparison to other New World cich's but none the less they are an aggressive fish. Have you never heard of someone keeping 2 Oscars and having one beat the crap out of (or kill) the other? I've heard of it happening countless times. I could point you to a heap of discussions on that exact problem on numerous sites like this one if you disagree it happens. If yours have never bashed one another I think that's good, you are lucky and have "matched" Oscars (temprements able to co-exist) as I said.

So you're saying I'm above average?

Well I assume your not a novice.

How? An adult Oscar @ 12 inches is still only 1/4 the length of the aquarium. They "navigate" easily. Are you saying that something about the water quality in a 55 makes them lose balance and they can't navigate, or that the tank dimensions are small enough that they don't fit?

How wide is a 55gallon tank for these 12 inch+ fish to be turning around in? That is what I mean by navigation.

Originally posted by fnesr
I disagree on that. I would rate them low interms of aggression in comparison to other New World cich's but none the less they are an aggressive fish. Have you never heard of someone keeping 2 Oscars and having one beat the crap out of (or kill) the other? I've heard of it happening countless times. I could point you to a heap of discussions on that exact problem on numerous sites like this one if you disagree it happens..

I've heard of it in forums, but have never experienced it, nor have my friends. Even in forums I've not seen it mentioned "countless times" nor have I seen a "heap" of discussions. I've seen a few, but usually when there's another problem (water quality or something). In my experience, if kept correctly, Oscars are quite docile. Exciteable (especially at feeding time) but not aggressive.

If yours have never bashed one another I think that's good, you are lucky and have "matched" Oscars (temprements able to co-exist) as I said.

Do you think it's common for Oscars to "bash" one another or "beat the crap out of (or kill) the other"? I think it's more common, if they are treated well, to exist peacefully together. I don't think it's a matter of luck, as you say, or that they are "matched" -- I think it's simply caring for your pets correctly so as to keep stress levels low. I think in the past 30 years, with my approximately 12 Oscars, I've never had a problem with them getting along, nor have I had a problem with aggression (unless you count stalking feeders - -) I had a Dempsey (named Herman) for ten or twelve years, and sometimes they would get a bit defensive when Herman decided he owned his tank, but other than that they were calm fish. Frisnds of mine here in my city have similar experiences. If you look in literature, Oscars are not noted for their aggressiveness, except in reference to eating. (Axelrod: "A predacious species that will eat fishes smaller than itself, not to be kept in the community aquarium"). Stilllearnin said (in another thread) that in his experience, some older Oscars that he's kept start to get aggressive, but I think his comment was in regards aging. What you're describing, Oscars that are kept as pairs in 55s bashing each other and killing each other, just isn't in my experience. Maybe when that happens there's a problem with aquarium maintenance or just a lack of knowledge on how to keep Oscars correctly.

How wide is a 55gallon tank for these 12 inch+ fish to be turning around in? That is what I mean by navigation.

My tanks are 13 inches wide. The Oscars swim freely about, and have no problems turning. Why would they?

--Mark:cool:

I think I will agree to disagree on this now. We both have strong opinions on the subject and don't think either of us will be swayed no matter how much we cut up each others posts for rebuttle.

I don't know if it was implied toward me at all but just want to mention I do care for my pets correctly and I wouldn't say I have a lack of knowledge on how to keep Oscars correctly.

[QUOTE][i] From Mark
[B] Naw, it's impossible. If you do something silly like dump a half a jar of food into your tank and don't net it out, first you're going to see your ammonia jump, then your nitrite, and then your nitrate -- and that process would probably take about 4 weeks. It's identical to cycling an aquarium when you first start it up. Anyone who sees a lot of nitrate in their tank spent a lot of time letting it develop. It builds up at the end of the cycle, and it's impossible to go from zero to 80ppm in just two days.

MARK I have to disagree on this. The nitr. cycle is almost instant once tank is properly cycled. Food i agree with feed only what they will consune , but, urine and poo from them create ammonia and a PROPERLY filtered tank will break it down to trites then trates almost on contact.It takes no where near 4 weeks like a cycle does. Nitrates build every second/minute/hour,etc. If you try a master test kit out you will see for yourself....And i have never seen a 0ppm in a cycled tank? Mine stays around 5-20ppm, 20 -30 is max for me then water change..
If it was like you stated it would be ammonia and nitrite floating in there for weeks?Meaning very stunted or dead fish.
80ppm might be a stretch for 2 days but 10ppm can easily be reached in such a bioload in a day...
Alot does come back to what you said feeding is key
Mine are once a day for O and africans are 3 times a day[needed] and all tanks have water changes weekly/or when trates get20- 30ppm.
Just plain facts and my 2 cents

Originally posted by GMAN
MARK I have to disagree on this. The nitr. cycle is almost instant once tank is properly cycled. Food i agree with feed only what they will consune , but, urine and poo from them create ammonia and a PROPERLY filtered tank will break it down to trites then trates almost on contact.

How? Tell me the science. Organic matter needs to decompose to ammonia. Ammonia needs to be consumed by Nitrobacter and turned into nitrite. Nitrite needs to be consumed by Nitrosomonas and turned into nitrate. So, how could nitrate rise "almost on contact" from urine and poo? It's gotta come from somewhere. It doesn't just magically appear. Unless you purposefully put it in yourself (to fertilize plants) it has to be at the far end of the nitrogen cycle. Every cycled and properly operating home aquarium has organic material, ammonia, nitrobacter, nitrite, nitrosomonas, and nitrate, all the time. The point is that we have enough nitrosomonas and nitrobacter established to keep the levels of ammonia and nitrite low and then we have enough plants and/or partial water changes to keep nitrate down.

It takes no where near 4 weeks like a cycle does.

Then explain what the cycle is for me. If it isn't the establishment of colonies of nitrobacter and nitrosomonas for the purpose of turning ammonia into nitrite into nitrate, then what is it? And if you will agree that that is cycling a tank, then what in the world is the difference between cycling a tank and what's happening in your tanks right now -- and why would the time frame be any different?

And i have never seen a 0ppm in a cycled tank? Mine stays around 5-20ppm, 20 -30 is max for me then water change..

Then you probably need to increase the frequency of your water changes. I have a community tank that shows nitrate sometimes, but I don't see it in any measureable amount in the Oscar or Goldsaum tanks. I'm sorry that you think I'm lying, and, frankly, I don't see the reason for your "flames", but I think with good aquarium maintenance it's possible to shedule water changes frequently enough to not see nitrate buildup.

If it was like you stated it would be ammonia and nitrite floating in there for weeks?

Yes. Ammonia and nitrite is always in every aquarium at all times. In a properly cycled and maintained aquarium, it is kept to low levels by colonies of bacteria that are constantly processing it down the cycle. Without ammonia and nitrite, the nitrate that is in your aquariums could not exist. Also, as much as we hate ammonia and nitrite, they are absolutely necessary for a healthy aquarium to keep the bacterial colonies alive. Yin and Yang. Balance. Therefore, a buildup of nitrate at the end of the cycle is an absolute inevitability. Our goal is to keep enough plants and do enough water changes to keep the nitrate low.

As a 55 for 2 O's go,I think it is cruel

This is the third time in a couple of weeks that I've been accused of being cruel. But none of these three have even a shred of evidence or science to prove it. I would ask Gman, fnesr, and Ironside to do the research before making these kind of accusations. Please.

--Mark:cool:

But none of these three have even a shred of evidence or science to prove it. I would ask Gman, fnesr...

What? I never said any such thing. I would ask you to please show me where I said you are cruel, infact even show me where I refered to anything to do with the nitrification cycle because that puzzles me entirely? I talked only of behavioural and space issues, infact I even said it is "do-able" and never mentioned any water quality issues at all.

As I said, I agree to disagree as I don't want to argue here. As for "doing my reaserch", you could say I do a little more then the average fishkeeper and there's a few people here that certainly would not disagree.

D Hey Mark sure is a lively thread, I am pretty sure you didn't think it would go that way. Anyhow, I reread it from front to back this am, and watched how it went from a question of tank filtering to a debate about tank size. Sort of like how if you have a group of people, and you whisper something in one person's ear, and have them pass it on. By the time the last person hears it, it has very little to do with the orginal statement. The debate about tank size will go on, as long as we have tank sizes to choose from. Personally I know your not treating your fish in cruel manner, in fact I think yours are about as healthy as they could be in captivity. I respect your stance on the subject, and also your experence and knowledge. Personally, I do not want this forum to become one where ppl stop a discusion and start flames, or where it gets to a point where a person even feels they have been flamed. It should be a forum where ppl can express views and ideas, share thier combined experence, and of course help out those who need help with their fish. In that respect I am locking out this thread.