CichlidFish.com - Fish That Think.

Evening Everyone.

Was down my not so LFS, arranging my new tank for xmas and was talking to the bloke who owns the store.

After chatting about cichlids, work , booze etc (the usual talk in hull it seems)

we got talking about how he brings himself to sell fish to people who don't know what their doing.

He explained that all he can do is advise the customer on a fish, he cannot, from a financial stance, not sell them a fish.

And, as if to prove the point, some ham fisted knuckle dragger lumbered in and explained that his 3 green terrors wouldn't stop fighting with his 2 oscars, and that his red devil had been killing his parrot cichlids.

Now, fair credit to the store owner, he explained to the man that, yes, that will happen when you cram so many fish together, that he needs a bigger tank, another filter, some dividers and to check his water params etc.

The customer, taken aback at the owners honest, simply insisted on buying more fish. Simply ignoring the advice, (and ill be honest, my snide comments and astonished head shaking)

Customer walks out a happy man with his 3 new oscars or what ever it was to "even things up"

Now, heres what i want to debate.

Is what the store owner did right?

In my eyes, from a moral stance, no, definitely not. Those fish are going to have a miserable time, get messed about, possibly die etc etc.

But from a financial stance, Should he force himself to say no to a sale? whether it be some gorilla who only keeps big mean fish because of the stigma, or to some young kid, making the same mistakes with guppy's and neons we all made.

Any thoughts on this?

Enjoy some food for thought
Craig

[quote] Is what the store owner did right?[/quote]

IMO yes

First he told the truth which seems rare in fish stores these days. Around here stores would probally come up with some line about overcrowing to avoid aggression, just to push more sales.

If he didn't sell the fish - he lost the sale and more then likely the guy would just go to another store anyways. What happens then is  " some ham fisted knuckle dragger" tells his friends store X "sucks,that guy wouldn't sell me fish" word of mouth and oponion of a freind can lead to more lost sales and a closed store

I agree, unfortunately.  This is the classic dilemma of people who love animals getting into the pet shop business.  Or wilderness guides who, in order to make a living, guide so many people into the wilderness that soon there is no more wilderness.  Or for that matter young, idealistic law school graduates who soon learn that their real job is to help their clients circumvent the law.  I don't know a good answer.

But who is Morales, and what did he do? 

lol, quickly sent me scrambling to word to check my spelling.

Brings us to the question whether fishkeeping itself is cruel, because it allows for these types of situations? I've seen some websites and heard some talk that keeping an aquarium in itself is cruelty to animals. I don't agree, because I think responsible fishkeeping is at the same level as responsible dog-keeping. But, when situations arise like Craig brought up, makes ya think.

Very true

I have a vegan friend who has mixed feelings about the whole situation. He understands that MY fish are well kept (some say spoilt... namely my wife) but he cant understand why disease like ich, HITH or as fights between species etc are allowed to happen. Dont happen in the wild (to as great a scale as they are previlent in the hobby)

After all is said and done, seems like fish are a second class "Pet"

I know a few oddballs and anti-pet people [color=red](some annoying[/color],[color=blue]some reasonable)[/color]
Have a few annoying ones locally,that know it all 
Locally they want dyed and deformned fish banned and I support that (within reasonable limits,anyways)
But I also just heard a speach about how  some of them are trying to outlaw fishing and hunting here again 

[quote]why disease like ich, HITH or as fights between species etc are allowed to happen. Dont happen in the wild (to as great a scale as they are previlent in the hobby)

[/quote]

and this is case (to a point ) of misinformation or lack of knowledge.

In reality disease is a [b]lot[/b] more prevelant in wild fish.

Some things like Ich [color=blue](which is a parasite not a disease)[/color] is present in almost all fish, in the wild fish just have the option to hide and heal or hide and die. And nature allows it to happen not man.

Or take more serious diseases like Lymphocystis -
Wild fish (especially central and south americans) have up to a 75% chance of haveing or getting it. It is deadly to fish and common since it is said to live in the ground and wash into water during rains.
You rarely see it in an aqurium due to better health and care. When you do see it paranoa sets in for people who incounter it.

Same with fights in the wild they happen over territory and mates.
With the outcome either one fish is left homeless to move to a new area to fight again or die. Nature makes it happen , [b]we all know the saying "survival of the fitest" <-- that came from nature not an aquarium.[/b]

In a little glass box things can just be seen easier and for some people complained about easier.


I'll often side with the people trying to fix the environment so fish have somewhere to live  but until that happens my fish seem content not being caught for food ,eaten by a predator [color=blue](predators don't understand being vegan or care what peta says)[/color] or haveing their water flooded with pesticides or being outcompeted by some introduced "food" or "sport" fish.


One thing that always stumps [color=blue](or infuriates / since they don't like they're own anwser)[/color] people who think fish keeping is cruel is to (be nice) and ask them, would you rather drink their pesticide laden , polluted water they came from or the tap water that fills their tank.

  Then to be a smart alec  ask them to stop useing bottled water since it's putting such a strain on the environment 


[size=100]Nothing against your friend, could be  a perfectly reasonable person, their not all crazy and maybe they don't all think us fish keepers are all crazy [/size]
[color=red]but[/color]
Find me a Vegan who is a true vegan anyways - I've NEVER seen one! and likely never will.

[quote]Vegans do not use or consume animal products [b]of any kind[/b][/quote]

Yeah some go far ,won't even buy leather shoes, good for their effort 

But most drive! Whats gasoline/oil?  Why yes it's remnats of animals!
How about home heating oil? coal or natural gas? Why yes it's remnats of animals!
How about plastic? for cars, water bottles , etc.. etc..  Petroleum, and thats from? Why yes it's remnats of animals!
Coating over electrical wires? PVC plumbing pipes? wheres that all start? Petroleum again!


A steak is a dead animal, I'll never disagree  [color=blue] (heck I'll even agree alot of farms could be ran/kept better.)[/color]
But in the end like it or not so is almost anything plastic  or fueled.
So in the end - someones a hippocrate



[quote]After all is said and done, seems like fish are a second class "Pet"[/quote]
Unfortunately thats true for a lot of people.
Luckily not all.

lol, too true mate.
To be reasonable, my friend isnt anti fish keeping, not by a long means, and is happy to see fish kept properly, hes ust hates animal cruelty. Cant blame him eh?

lol, weirdly, hes also very dedicated to veganism. doesnt eat meat, drink milk, wear leather. we joke, but its actually pretty comendable.

Either way, off topis eh? lol Im off for some meat 

[quote]To be reasonable, my friend isnt anti fish keeping, not by a long means, and is happy to see fish kept properly, hes ust hates animal cruelty. Cant blame him eh?[/quote]


The people like that (ones with reasoning) , I might still disagree with but I can respect them.

If there were more of them and more hobbyist willing to work with them, it has the potential to help this hobby alot.

I agree with you Craig...its quite a dilemma to be in which is why I would be crap working in a pet shop. I would be telling that nugget that as long as his bum is facing south, he can not buy his fish from me until he gets his act together lolll.( an to pass that on to his mates !)
One way would be to have lots of accurate information in prominant positions above the tanks re care requirments, tank mates etc. Also to have information sheets for folks to take home on the nitrogen cycle and on the species that they buy rather than just word of mouth when they leave.Perhaps have cards printed to responsible fish links on the net where they can get advice easily.
<< sighs. I realise however that knuckledraggers aint going to read those either.
The short/sharp shock treatment might work lol. Have special info sheets printed out for those folks telling them how to tightly hold the base of the heater underwater while plugging it gently into the mains.