CichlidFish.com - Fish That Think.

I may be a bit unorganized in my description, trying to say everything, and I am mentally exhausted/a bit stressed.

At first I thought I had Ich (well, not me but my little Sesshomaru) and asked a member a question to make sure I understood the treatment methods ...  but now I think it is something else ...

I was wondering if someone could help diagnose this white stuff so I treat the problem correctly.  A LFS said to use PimaFix and Melafix once my BB gets back up to normal.  I plan to put in the Bio-Spira I purchased after I am sure that Ich-Attack organic stuff is gone, and I take the carbon filters out (how long should it take to clear it so I can remove the carbon?) and give my filter media a good tank water rinsing to remove any remaining in it.  This stuff leaves a brown film on everything and smells like hickory smoke, A1, and Pastrami ...  didn't bother the little guy at all, nor his appetite.  If anyone has had it work please feel free to give it a thumbs up, but for me I will never try it again.  I even started to increase the dose as it says you can do about halfway through, and naively believed it to be working.

The symptoms ...  At first, I noticed a little flat white spot towards the front of his body.  Then I saw a small cluster of flat white spots on the body near the tail.  Well, it was on him for about 5 days, then was clear for about 5 days, and I was using up the last of the Ich-Attack, then I noticed two white 'fluffy' (kinda like little cotton tufts) spots, on opposite sides but same place, in the crease that follows the vertical part of the gill line just in front of the gills, small, maybe 1 mm spots.  I tried to get a picture but the only one that was clear enough to see my little guy had bubbles in it and made him look like he had ich all over him but you couldn't see the things I am talking about   My tank right now has a ton of tiny air bubbles floating around, which doesn't bother him or I, but doesn't help much with the pictures ...  and I am sure they are air bubbles, if I turn the air stones down for a day or two it diminishes, but don't want to lower the oxygen levels since I am messing with the tank and raising the temps.

My little guy is energetic, always hungry, responsive, breathing normal ...  unless you get right up to him and look for it, you would never know there was any problem.  I was just about to consider the problem dealt with when I saw the new spots.  I wanted to lower my water temp to lessen its heat load on the room, but now I don't know how long this will take.

I was treating for Ich with the organic Ich-Attack (Chemicals for me are an absolute last resort).  It knocked out part of my BB a bit suddenly yesterday, so be careful using it.  I had a big nitrite creep over the last 24 hours and a minimal reading for ammonia and before that my levels were always 0 on each.  I did a 50% change to remove a big portion of that stuff and drop the nitrites some, tomorrow another big change.  Before the water change amm  almost 0 ppm, nitrite close to 2 ppm, nitrate approx. 10 ppm (the tap water started having some ), pH between 7.4-7.8, 83 F and rising, 1.5 TBSP/5 gal aquarium salt (API), 55 gal, Emperor 400, 250W Visi-Therm Stealth, air wand and air volcano ...  I will test it tomorrow before I change the water again.  I will be slowly lowering the salt once this is all done, but had read elsewhere it helped with Ich treatment by dehydrating the parasite.  I had used it when I introduced him and started the tank, was slowly removing it before I noticed the first spots, now after seeing nitrites, and reading it is proven to lessen nitrite absorbtion, I will leave it for now.

btw, my LFS advised me to never change that much water at once (50%), they even looked at me funny when I said I changed 20% two days ago and clean my gravel every time I take water out.  They said that disturbs the bacteria and that is why I am having problems ...  I bit my tongue ...  their freshwater tanks always have yellow water ...  and there was quite a few berry tetras (  ) that had Ich, so now I know what it looks like and quite sure it isn't what mine has, a dying juvie O that hasn't grown in months (4" max TL) and all its tank mates died (I saw them DOA), etc.  BUT, they are the only place that carries Bio-Spira and they do keep it refrigerated.  The saltwater stuff is taken much better care of.  PetSmart is the best place we have (never have dyed fish) and has the largest selection of food and other products (yes, more selection than the fish store).  What I would give for a local quality fish shop ...  sorry for that rant, it just irks me to see such icky tanks, wal-mart has cleaner tank water/tanks ... 

I cannot think clearly and want to take the proper next step and quit jumping to conclusions and treating for things he doesn't have.  I really shouldn't worry so much since he is visibly happy and active, but I know that I am responsible for him and love him a lot, and don't want to wait too long, or wrongly assume he is ok, and kick myself if something happens to him.  I feel like one of those over-protective parents that takes their kids to the doctor for a cold because I think they have pneumonia (did I spell that correctly?), but don't want to be the parent that assumes the kid is ok and the child ends up having TB.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.  Hope I made sense and gave enough of the right info.


edit:  those little white spots are actually at the top of that jaw line, right where it ends.  They are very small, but not ich-like crystal dots.  If he wasn't so dark, I would almost describe it as little pieces of skin, like a slight shedding.  I teased him with some krill to get a better look at it (then fed it to him).  Krill is his favorite treat.  Just trying to describe it the best I can ...  since pictures weren't working, I am tired and will  try to get a good, clean picture tomorrow.

Sorry I have been off line for a bit, otherwise I would have caught this quicker, google columaris. It could be what you have, its not ich, and I think you know that. Also another it might be is lymphocyists, both of these disease tend to have white patchy things that resemble a fungus.

yeah, quite sure it is not ich now.  The white patches on that line had went away within a day of raised heat and never returned, but the little patch of dots near the tail fin on the body came back after the heat was raised, but it is the only thing on him now.  I search his body for quite a while everyday looking for anything, with different lighting, different angles, all the while he is doing his happy dance.  I found it easier to be on the end of the tank because even when he stops dancing for a moment and swims back and forth in front of me, he doesn't go as far.

I searched the columaris ...  which it said is fin rot and I couldn't get any results from various spellings of lymphocysts, but I don't think it is a cyst/cancerous type problem, or fin rot, all of his finnage looks perfect, not one tear, spot, or even a niche out of the fins, but I won't rule anything out. 

From what I have read searching, the only thing I found that sounds similar so far is a generic body fungus, since it is described as white or gray spots, which this little group of spots (on one side) towards the back has manifested itself as gray that turned white, this time it is a faint gray but not turning white, as if it is weaker this time. 

Will the increased heat make a difference with a fungus like this?  Should I treat with Mela/Pimafix while the heat is up or does heat have no effect on things other than Ich?  I am going to the pet store to pick up some new media for the second filter before I put it on, so I could easily pick up one or both of those products as well.  My panic has gone away, he hasn't changes his energy or hunger levels, other than seeing the spot (so faint others I show can't see it), I would give him a clean bill of health.

Thanks again.

this is pretty old, but I am curious of what you did to trreat your tank?? I am see you are wary of using meds and you are doing your own investigations. THAT is GREAT .. but one thing to remember with a tank is the FILTER is your worst breeding ground for bacteria.. GOOD and BAD.. I have Emperors too and LOVE them, all 17.. So you have a great filter here.. HOW OFTEN DO YOU CLEAN THE FILTER BOX?? I mean take it to the sink and clean it good??
The only thing U have to remember is to NOT get the bio wheels around any tap water. I leave mine in the filter hood by the tank..

I do mine evey water change for if I dont' I get health problems right away. AS I have had these tanks and filters for years now, I know that if the filter box is NOT cleaned the same time I do the tank, then I have problems later on with a week and half.. Why clean a tank if the filter BOX is dirty?? this just defeats the effort and the fish suffer..

YOUR spots are common and they do go way with good water condtions and a CLEAN FILTER BOX.. NOT just change the filter media pads..  I have not heard of heat being a reason for them to leave.. but I have not tryed this either..

Depending on how often U do water changes, ONCE a week is good for the gravel being vacuumed. Bio is not floatable, it attaches to everything and vacuuming the gravel does not take it away, not enough suction power here to make a difference .. YOU have bio wheels, so you are safe here.. BUT removing to much water can have an effect on the chemistry in the tank, NOT just the good bio but the balance of eveything combined.. That is why you should never have to remove more than 50% of your water, unless it is a emergency.. But again, your bio wheels have all you need to seed the tank within days..

So what did you do with the meds here. Sorry we have not been here.. YOU seem to be here a lot..   :icon_cheers:

Well, a lot of things happened since then.  For one, everything is great now   

I think it was just a mild case of body fungus and me going crazy because I saw a white mark ...  a combination of things went into fixing it.  I did take down my filter and cleaned it really well, also used a melafix/pimafix combo, I noticed a slight glaze on his eye, it went away within a day and has been clean since.  I think part of that had to do with the nitrite spike.  I also think part of that problem was my tendancy to overfeed him because I felt bad for him ...  for a disease that didn't seem to bother him much.  He ate a ton of treat food (Hikari FD Krill and FD Brine Shrimp).

I use that nifty little brush that came with the emperor to scrub the filters and intakes ...  I want to buy another to bend up to get into the curve of the intake tubes better.  I don't take the filter to the sink because of chlorinated water, but I use tank water before I dump it from the 5 gallon bucket.  I think it had been a while since I took down the filter box, and that could have definitely been contributing to my dilemma.  I remember quite a few times before that it seemed new inside when I took it down and I put it off for a few weeks.

I did add an extra filter.  So now there is the emporer 400 bio-wheel with two AquaClear 50 foam, two bags from a box of AquaClear 110 ceramic and two more bags in the gray containers in front of that, the second filter is the Wal-Mart variety of the Penguin 330 using the blue fuzzy stuff from a carbon filter in replace of some white filter floss I couldn't get cleaned up or find any to replace it, plus two more AquaClear 50 foam pads, and two AquaClear 110 ceramic pouches behind it. 

I clean out the box every third cleaning, or once a week, whichever comes first.  I used to gravel vac every day, but now do it every other day to twice a week, depending on how messy he is eating.  I actually need to clean the boxes out tomorrow.  I will lightly 'swish' one side of the filter media each cleaning excluding the wheel on each filter to keep nasties from getting clogged up in them.  I also dig extra good in the gravel on the once a week major break down just to make sure I haven't missed any during the week.  The once a week is up to 20 gal (just under 40%).  The other times it is 5-10 gallons.

I did use heat back then because I thought it was ich, left it up after the fact because I figured his immune system and possibly the life cycle of the fungus would also be faster. 

I have the tank down to 74-75F, he likes it just fine    and now his tank doesn't heat up my room like a stone pizza oven.  The salt has been phased out of the water.  My ammonia and nitrites have been under control (0 ppm) and my nitrates are staying between 5-10 ppm.  He is less finicky eating ...  he didn't even hold out a day when I wouldn't give him krill, so now he gets a combination of Bio-Gold mini, Bio-Gold+ medium, and Oscar Grow for breakfast and dinner, and a piece of krill as a treat before bed.

My mollie tank is fine as well, except that the FD Daphnia seems to cloud up the water and needs more frequent changes and they love the Hikari Micro Pellets.  I did lose one adult female, she just stopped eating and hid all the time no matter what I tried to do, and one baby for reasons I don't know.  The only difference was moving them to a new tank because the old one sprung a leak.  I also had taken off the foam from the AquaClear 50 pickup tube and a few of the smaller ones got caught up in it between the two straight pieces that stick together ...  quite sad about that, the foam is back and will never come back off.  There are still more than I can get an accurate count of.  They are happy and beg for food more than my Oscar!  I cannot go by the tank without them grouping up and darting around for food.  One of the adult females left tries to hold out for the daphnia, but will eat if it knows there is none coming.

So ...  do you suggest that the left-over moisture from rinsing out the filter boxes in the sink doesn't contain enough chlorine/chloramine to effect the BB?  I do think it would be helpful to use the sprayer as well, to get it cleaned out better.  Also, do you think the way I have the filters set up affects the flow of the water in a negative way at all?  I assumed more media would be better, but I could see if I am disturbing the designed flow path ...  quality of flow would be better than quantity of bacterial living space.

I am a bit tired, so I hope I made sense 

Using the MelaFix and Primafix to gether is the best way to get cloudy eye gone. So here you did good.. Cloudy eye is a result of a bad water conditions. I dont' "think" that Nitrite can do that.. so with everything else U have posted, I would says to high of NITRATES here with over feeding.. So you need to resist the temptation to OVER feed him.. THIS is what happens when you do.. That white patch on him could have been a scartch mark as Oscars do not have Scales, but a tough layer of colored skin you could say.. They are the exception in the fish world OF NOT having scales.. So U need to make sure the next time that IF he has a white place on him, it is not a scrape from objects in the tank and not a fungus problem.. Fungus hangs on them and is puffy looking.. IF your water condtions are good, then you should not have a fungus problem.. Seems you have learned to keep his tank extra clean here.. Oscars are messy eaters, Do you have another fish in with him?? I had others with mine and they ate UNDER HIM as he just made a mess..But mine was in a 125 gal tank..  NO mess with them in the tank..Depending on how big this tank is, you might want to see about another cichlid BUT A GOOD sized one to help with the wasted food issure from him..

That niffy brush with the Emperor is great to use! and they really need to give you two with the filter.. U can get others at the lfs and they do OK but fall apart easy..  YES you can do the filter in the sink!! JUST LEAVE THE BIO WHEELS IN THE FILTER HOOD BY THE TANK.. Clean that box out good. remember to take the intake part out and take that brush and clean out the impeller housing really good.. This can get slimy and needs to be cleaned.. The impeller too needs a LIGHT brush off so do so under running water.. YOU wil feel the slime on the inside of the filter parts,, This is from the slime coat on the fish as they shed, this gets sucked into the filter coating EVERYTHING.. Good and bad bacteria get traped in it and U need to scrub it off..  That brush also fits in to the spray bars so make sure you run it in them a few times. DO NOT jam the bush in them thou, I have had mine LEAK as that is a CAP at the end and if you scrub and jam that brush in them to the very end to hard, it knocks it loose.. Silicone on them keeps them sealed..

NOW, Although you have used tap water here, once you place the filter back on the tank, U add in tank water OR new dechlo water to the filter box.. THIS WILL NUTURLIZE ANY CHLORINE in the filter on contact!! JUST DONT' ADD BACK ON THE BIO WHEELS UNTIL THE FILTER RUNS FOR A FEW MINUTES!! REMEMBER to point those SPAY bars DOWN into the filter or you wil get wet.. Yea, been their, got wet!!

I dont' clean off my bio-wheels, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TOO UNLESS YOU SEE STUFF ON THEM!! leave them alone!! They rotate and keep them selves cleaned off.. To much swishing here can damage them and that you dont' want!! YOU can now, take a paper towel and clean off the outside plastic housing they are on..
I also clean off the media pads in the sink using high pressure to just get the crude off and reuse them.. Again with 17 filters I have to reuse them alot until they get to the point of needing to be replaced. WHY throw them away when YOU can rise them off with a hard spray?? these are expensive filter pads. 12.00 for 4..
IN 30 days I cut a slit at the top of the media pads and shake out the CARBON as it is fairly used up by then.. With the extra media tray, IF I USE ANY.. I use those for carbon holders  or extra flose to catch more debri.. 

YES you might, OK YOU DO  have to many filter helpers in the Emperor. This WILL slow down the return and make the motor work harder to pump the water out..I am surprised it has not over flowed here..  YOu would do better with another Emperor 400 on this tank and take those others off.. YOU dont' need the foam filters with the Emperor filters.. THOSE bio wheels have all the good bio you need.. BUT until you can get another Emperor OR NOT, then use them..


"I clean out the box every third cleaning, or once a week, whichever comes first"

"I used to gravel vac every day, but now do it every other day to twice a week, depending on how messy he is eating." 

YOU say you clean this tank three times a week?? OK I can see this to a point but this is WAY to much.. NOW if you vac the gravel due to OVER feeding then YES, but not the whole tank and  not the filter box its self on every cleaning.. WEEKLY is fine here, but you can clean off the media pads and reuse them.

YOU know, U could just feed him in one spot and clean it after he eats and just take out 2 or more gal of water. THIS would benefit the Oscar and the tank better. YOUR nitrates are fine and just perfect as you have done so many water changes and gravel cleanings you dont' have a build up of high NITRATES.. BUT if you stop feeding him so much, you can stop with so many cleaning too. THIS also wil help the tank and keep the Oscar from getting to fat to becoming sick..

FEED the Oscar MORNING AND NITE ONLY!!  This wil help his health a lot better and keep you from having to clean the tank so much.. When he gets bigger, U can feed him only once a day as he slows down and does not need a lot of food..

Fish are natural beggers. THEY KNOW you as food. so resist giving into them..