CichlidFish.com - Fish That Think.

I had read a post about dempseys.  I was looking for more info on size, breeding, etc.  I stumbled upon electric blue dempseys from a few online breeders/ suppliers.  Does anyone have more knowledge on these?  I can't find out if they are perhaps a "real" hybrid, or if it has more history.  The price tag on these fish is pretty high, and would like to know more. Thanks.

This is an open question.  Some well regarded importers say they are not hybrids, while others say they are.  I tend to believe they probably are, though I have no "hard" evidence.  By all accounts they are less aggressive and more "fragile" than normal dempseys.  Here's a thread from one of our admins' site that you might find of interest:

http://www.cjexotics.com/yabbse/index.p ... 567.0.html

SACSG has had a couple of threads regarding the Electric Blue Dempseys, and their conclusion is the same as stated by DanRad -- These fish are not long lived, seem frail and sickly. They don't believe they are hybrid.

(SACSG is "South American Cichlid Study Group", a Yahoo discussion group that anybody can enter and participate in. For some reason, the quality of poster there has skyrocketed, and is now frequented by true academics in the field. It's fun to lurk there, although I rarely add a comment -- right now there's a couple of threads where they are planning their next trips to SA to collect specimens - -)

To go with the discussion on the link Dan posted.

The orginal and current only large scale breeder says they are a hybrid.

A few of the most respected hobbyists in the hobby were shown the hybrid breeding facility in Argentina before the fish were offered for sale to anyone in North America.

^ to me thats enough said.


The other arguement is a DNA test was Done so they're not hybrids , but some people who have a great amount of knowledge in DNA and DNA testing say the test done proved nothing except the fish has dempsey back on the orginal mothers line somewhere.


Good luck getting more info.

You usually find people who have personal oponion based on looks or people who contine to belive they're not hybrids because some distributors say they're not - even when they're suppler say they are 

Thanks for all the great information.  After all the reading I have now done, I think I am going to pass on them. Not crazy about any hybrids. And from what it sounds like, the are to fragile for me, and their rice. thanks

You usually find people who have personal oponion based on looks or people who contine to belive they're not hybrids because some distributors say they're not - even when they're suppler say they are

Yeah, most of the "gang" at SACSG don't base their Hybrid assumption on fact, but assumption --

Just a personal opinion, but why encourage the proliferation of this and other "created" breeds when there are so many really good fish out there that are true species?  Want something blue?  There are some great choices!

I own a Gold Severum, so I'm not opposed to selective breeding for recessive genes (though this can be taken to extremes).  I'm also not opposed to enjoying keeping a hybrid, as long as it's offspring don't find their way into the hobby.  I am however deeply suspicious of the origins of this fish -- see Stilllearnin's comments.

As to other "blue" choices, there are several from Lake Malawi, and a few from Central America.  There may be more in South America, but there are vast tracts there that we haven't much information about.

A few from our photo galleries here:

http://oscarsfishtank.com/fishgallery/d ... um=3&pos=4

http://oscarsfishtank.com/fishgallery/d ... m=5&pos=11

In this one, check out the 6th photo down:
http://oscarsfishtank.com/discuss/index ... ic=22786.0

And a couple of mine:
http://oscarsfishtank.com/discuss/index ... ic=22918.0

DanRad sez:

why encourage the proliferation of this and other "created" breeds when there are so many really good fish out there that are true species?

The almighty buck, Dan, the almighty buck . . . --M

bluesesshomaru17 sez:

Most of the colorful fish are salt water.

There are some mighty beautiful and extremely colorful African cichlids out there . . . --Mark

Mark Stone wrote:bluesesshomaru17 sez:

Most of the colorful fish are salt water.

There are some mighty beautiful and extremely colorful African cichlids out there . . . --Mark

don't over look newworlds  Discus ,turquoise herichthys and on and on 

What I think is most important is the owners.  How well will the individual fish be taken care of and if the stores selling them are giving accurate information.  Why are there well over 200 juvenile Oscars for sale in my city alone?  Why does it say a 30 gallon is what they need?  Why don't the require you to buy (or give your your first) test kit and teach you the correct parameters for the fish to live healthy (or require you to buy the proper tank size from the start). 

As long as we are not doing something that is harming the fish, I don't see a problems with more variety

You hit the issue right on the head (for some of us anyways) why produce a fish like the "blue dempsey" when it's fragile , often dies , does not reproduce normally and polutes the gene pool of true dempseys. Is that really better then not takeing care of a fish?

Here is a site dedicated to EBJDs I found:

http://bluejax.co.uk/default.aspx

It has arguments for both color morph and hybrid theories.

I personally believe it is recessive genes.

I still don't grasp the concept of why anyone belives they're not hybrids?
Do people really think the orginal creators of them don't know how they did it?
Do people not notice the shape and pattern is different,not just the color?

I am doing a lot of research now on EBJDs because I plan on that to be my next fish

the orginal producers (and still main suppliers of all blue dempseys world wide) say and even in print (translated) = "it is necessary to say that, before obtaining Dempsey Blue, there was a  spontaneous cross between Nandopsis (x Cichlasoma) octofasciatus and other varieties of Central American, such cíclidos"
also
"Of the obtained copies a number existed with all the features of N. octofasciatum, some with indefinite features and others with features of Heros (xCichlasoma) managuense. Finally there discarded all those that did not have features of Jack Dempsey, for what we suppose that the appearance of the blue gene must come from some of the copies crossed with H. managuense but that they have the whole appearance of N. octofasciatum"

For personal research - try this
compair the head shape and facial markings on a young "blue dempsey" to young of both a normal dempsey and a jag (managuense) , they look real close to one and young  jack dempseys don't have facial patterns 

Just for more info since it seems like a lot of people are always looking and/or confused by the stories.
The other site posted,relays the old TFH story.

It all started in 1985 when Mr. Luzardo received a mated pair of young Cichlasoma octofasciatum as a gift from a friend.

The quotes I posted(translated) are what was posted directly from the breeder that gave Hector Luzardo the fish and the people that have worked with them since Luzardo's passing.

That site also posts the info saying

The DNA analysis I did totally invalidates any claims that Cichlasoma octofascaiatus is the daughter species of N. tetracanthus and/or H. carpintis. If it was a hybrid of two other species, it would have been very apparant in the study.

This was a hot discussion at club events and with hobbyists for a while and while I'm no scientist.  Those species were never claimed to be part of the hybrid and the test that was shown to people did NOT even cover those species or managuense.

It was explained to some serious hobbyist by a biologist that the DNA test that was done (orginally posted online but removed) only really proved the "blue dempseys" had a female dempsey on the maternal side somewhere and they weren't a dempsey X midas hybrid.


http://www.elacuarista.com/inicio.htm has the origin info on the blue "dempsy" but you have to translate it.

I'm curious whether hybrid and recessive gene Blue JDs can both exist, independently? There may be a breeder somewhere that isn't "in our circle" (so to speak) that has bred the blue (or, rather, "a" blue) independently, so both may be true? I've never heard of it, myself, but just a thought. --Mark