CichlidFish.com - Fish That Think.

Hi all, I'm new to this forum and very embarrassed and upset about my recent experiences but really need to move forward. 

I have kept a tropical fish community tank for several years and never had as many probems in that whole time, as I have done recently.  I decided I wanted to keep oscars and purchased a new 100 gal tank.  Set it up with plants, gravel, heater etc and put 3 of my hardiest fish in there in an effort to cycle the new external cannister filter.  Everything seemed to be going swimmingly!  After a few weeks of partial water changes and the addition of 'cycle' to help things forward, I fell in love with a couple of tiny tigers.  I took a sample of my water into the shop (just to confirm my own tests) and came home with the two 1.5" babies.  I moved two of the original three fish back to their original tank but left the catfish which I had read would be OK with Oscars.  In went the babies who were very active, entertaining and hungry from the very start.  I fed them mainly with tiny cichlid pellets, freeze dried tubifex and daphnia, and the occasional frozen bloodworm.  They doubled their size almost immediately, then suddenly one developed ick.  I treated with Esha Exit (after removing the carbon from the filter) but it just got worse.  At the end of the course I decided that maybe the Exit just wasn't strong enough and after 48 hours put the carbon back in for a day, did a partial water change then resumed treatment with Protozin.  The ick went but I was left with a bit of mouth fungus and mild finrot.  I rang the makers of Protozin, followed their guidelines (watechange, 48 hours carbon etc....) and treated with myxazin....  Everything looked fine for about a week, fins grew back fungus gone .. hungry oscars.  Then one started breathing very heavily.  I suspected a lack of oxygen but with an aircurtain, plants and a good circulation, this seemed unlikely.  All the water tests looked great, I was at a loss.  After another two days the breathing was persisting and he stopped eating.  I suspected some sort of bacterial/gill fluke problem and decided to treat with a broad range bacterial treatment - this did no good and sadly he died.  two days later, the catfish died and the other baby began the same cycle.  I tried a 20 min salt bath and further treatment and water changes but it was no good.

Left with a now empty tank and convinced that some nasty critters had taken up residence, over the next two weeks double dosed the treatment.  I did several water changes and replaced the carbon.  A couple of weeks later I again tested the water and it looked good. The test I use covers nitrite = 0 nitrate=around 25 to 30, PH 7.6 Gh around 6 and KH 12 (the last two may be round the other way) I decided it was time to try again.  Stupidly I bought a further 2 baby oscars (about 1" this time).  They survived for 3 weeks, no ich, no fungus, no finrot.  Then suddenly one started breathing heavily... well you can guess the rest. 

The only thing I never tested for was ammonia - my local shop said it was a waste of money and it wouldn't be the problem.  I bought the test anyway, and although the reading was small around 0.3, it was still present!  I have now added zeolite to my filter and put a shoal of zebra danios in to help cycle the tank some more.

Can anybody tell me whether they think this ammonia has been the problem all along - what would the symptoms of ammonia poisining be?  I'm frightened to go through it all again - the danios are fine, the ammonia reading is 0 but I'm still not sure.  Are O's delicate when they are that small - were they two young? Please help.
 

Hi, splodge, and welcome to the forum!  Sorry to hear about your difficulties.  New tanks can be tricky.  I have to tell you you got some bad advice from whomever told you not to worry about ammonia.  That's the first thing you do need to worry about!  Check out this thread for some basic info:

http://www.bestfish.com/breakin.html

You gave us a good descrition of your tank, but a couple of info items might help us give you better steering. 

1  What is the make & model of your cannister filter, and how is the return water  handled -- spraybar, bio-wheel, or what?

2  I assume you have a heater(s)?

3  What sort of gravel are you using?

Young Oscars are generally pretty hardy.  Ich is always a risk with new fish.  Don't know the meds you mention, but it's a popular disease, so there are lots.  With a new setup like this, there are plenty of things that can go wrong, and the tendency is to over-medicate when simpler solutions might be better (BTDT). 

I'm not a fan of Cycle.  IME it's worthless.  Best to follow cycling instructions in the above link.  Watch ammonia & nitrite readings like a hawk!  With new setups, adding some salt -- say a teaspoon for every 5 gallons -- is a good idea.  Helps neutralize nitrite toxicity.  With young fish, try to keep the temp stable, and I'd suggest large water changes at least a couple of times a week until everything is stable and everyone is healthy.  Good luck!

Thank you Danrad for your response, my cannister filter is a Fluval 405, the return is simply an outlet which is directed across an aircurtain to increase oxygen - I don't think this is a problem as you can see millions of fine bubbles all through the top 8 inches of the tank.  Yes I have a heater and the temperature is a steady 25 deg C (about 77F) at both ends. The gravel is standard small natural pebble looking - all prewashed and I rinsed again before I used it.

Not sure what BTDT is?

Thank you for the link - I have 14 zebra danios in there now and 1 plec, I will do as you suggest.  I checked my levels last night and I think the ammonia problem has gone (couldn't detect any hint of colour in the test) Nitrites seemed to be zero weeks ago and nothing has changed in that department since.  Do you think if I left s is for another couple of weeks my chances would be better? What size oscar would you recommend - should I go for something a little bigger around 2 inches instead of the real tiny jeuveniles? 

I didn't add salt because at the moment the tank is planted (I do realise that oscars will have their own opinion about that eventually) At the level you suggest (1 tsp for 5 gals) would this harm plants?  I have java fern & moss with a few algae balls and a patch of saggitaria.

I look forward to your response
Janet

Hi, Janet.  Everything sounds pretty good.  (BTDT = Been There, Done That)

The reason I asked about the gravel was your pH reading.  It should be fine for your fish as is, but if you were guided to use say, crushed coral, it could over time push the pH up to unhealthy levels, leaving your fish vulnerable to opportunistic diseases.

Some of our plant people may disagree (perhaps correctly), but I don't think salt in the amount I mentioned will kill your plants. 

One of the dangers of adding any new fish is the introduction of things like ich.  It's actually a little more complicated than that, but functionally true.  There's no foolproof guard against it that I've found, but there are things you can do to minimize:

Best case is to have a separate quarantine tank to keep the newbies in for a week or so -- meanwhile observing them carefully.  That way if there are any problems you can treat only the new fish, and not stress the current residents.

Ich tends not to thrive much above 80 degrees F.  After adding the new fish, try raising temp to around 82 for four or five days.

Some (not all) fish aren't hearty eaters for a few days after being moved.  Try to judge how the food is being received, and adjust your amount accordingly.  Uneaten food complicates your water chemistry, making your fish less disease resistant.  Just as with people, under-feeding slightly is healthier than over-feeding.  Feed what they'll clean up in about 4 minutes.  More than that is too much.  Again like people, young fish do better with frequent small feedings than with infrequent large feedings. 

I don't know that buying a larger fish is safer than buying a younger one.  I've done some of each, though I confess my preference is to get them small & watch them grow.

What I might do is choose a different shop.  Check the tanks carefully, especially where the ones you want to buy are living.  If the water doesn't look good, or if there are a number of unhealthy looking fish in the tanks, shop elsewhere! 

Good luck, and keep us posted!

Oscars are very delicate when they are that young. I bought my 9" tigers when they were about 1 1/2". I also have 6 others including a baby red who wouldn't grow! I bought him at about 1" and now he's 4-5", in only about 4 weeks. My suggestion would be to start raising them in a much smaller tank. Your ammonia tests will be much more accurate. I have a 120 gal. tank and about 4 others of various sizes for just this reason. The main symptom of ammonia poisoning is panting. They also take large breaths more often (like yawning). They can hang near the surface but it isn't always so in a large tank. I ended up with an oxygen problem in my 120 and there is 50 gal. of extra filtration and a power head. i had to add a very large air pump. For 2 O's of about 1 1/2" i think a 10 gal. is good. When they get to be about 4-5 " you should be able to move them without incident. You will need over filtration on the 10 gal. because they are messy eaters. Sorry this is long winded. I've been through a lot with my guys and learned from it. Let me know how everything turns out.

Fred
Thank you for your comments, I still haven't been brave enough to replace them, though all the readings are still good and steady.  The 14 danios and plec are doing well.  I do have a smaller tank I could use so I may well do as you suggest and leave the danios breeding for a while (it's what they seem to do best!) and let the plec put on some weight to give him a fighting chance! - I guess at least that way the filter will have ample time to settle in and be well cycled.

I will post and let you know how I get on.

Thanks again
Janet

Thanks for the reply. I recently bought an 8" O from PJ's at the pickering town center because he was going to become their 3 foot red-tailed cat fishes 4th victim. He lost so many layers of scales that i couldnt make out his lateral line. He had an open wound right down to the flesh on one side near his tail and his fins were shredded. I've had him about 3 weeks now and he's coming along nicely. No infections and new layer of skin on open wound has grown in. he is a very grateful O and a very happy little guy. If you were interested in a new oscar i would be willing to part with him as i don't have a pair mate for him. he's an albino and pretty cute. also a voracious eater! if you are interested let me know and i will send you a picture.

lots of luck
      Andrea
ps. once your cannister kicks into gear you will be fine for adding fish. had a similar problem when i got my first cannister.

Splodge don't feel bad I have had the same issue with my discus tank. And guess what I have the same cannister filter. I wonder outside of the ammonia if it's something up with the cannisters themselves I bought mine about a month ago. I also tried something else as I have several fishtanks. I drained most of the water out of the tank with the problems. And thankfully the fish I have all live in the same water parameters outside of temperature. I raised the temps on my stable tanks a touch to as close to discus temp as I dared and then added water from them all after a battery of tests to make sure nothing was off in those tanks. And added it to my new tank. Almost filling the new tank up (it's a 92 gallon) 55% I then refilled the other tanks which had been drained about 30% each or so. So basically I got all the stabilized water in a tank that's still dealing with a cycle and my old stable tanks got a bit more than normal but their water changes that were due. I tested a few hours later. A bit soon I admit but I was anxious. (and the testing kit was on sale for 50% off so i bought two and they are store level testing kits) And the ammonia had dropped to .25 from 1.0 and the nitrate and nitrite levels were almost perfect and the ph was the same. The discus are no long having black coloring to them and are much perkier and active. Maybe this experience can help you? As yours has made me feel better about my situation.

Hey Splodge!  Ain't it great!  In sharing your frustration over (possible new tank syndrome),  many memories come flooding back.  Being patient is always the hardest part.  Every time I set up a new tank,  all that really works for me is daily 10% water change.  You know all the equipment is too new to maintain good water parameters.  The daily changes take some of the load of the new filter.  Ever wonder why your water is cloudy after you change the media in your filter?

I'm also new to the forum.  Just now figured out how to post a reply.  Spent about an hour getting to know RoboFish last night.