CichlidFish.com - Fish That Think.

Stayin outta this one.... lol

Joe,
But you don't seem to understand what I was trying to say. I don't know how many times I have to state this, But I will try one more time.
THERE IS NO LINK BETWEEN 9/11 Terrorists and IRAQ.....That is the simply statement I made and was trying to make. Now, just to let you know they stated that there was a Saudi Link(Saudi Nationalists I believe) yes, but no Iraqi Link.

Terrorism-1. The Actof terrorizing or the state of being terrorized. 2.Unlawful acts of violence committed in an attempt to overthrow a Government. 3.A system of government that rules by intimidation.
Credit: Funk and Wagnalls.

I am not trying to argue with the fact that Terrorism is not in Iraq.
Every country by that defination would fall under some time of terrorism. (try not to pay your taxes) I minored in Political Science, Many well educated professors would tell you that USA rules by Intimadation, and not only supported but implanted many dictators that have done the same.

I will not argue that there is no terrorism in Iraq, I am not that stupid or ignorant. The Kurds have suffered a great deal in Iraq. I agree with many of your points, and do not doubt your sources. However I did recently read an article on the slaughter of over 300,000 Shite Muslims-simply because of their religion. The article also stated that many were burried alive.

THERE IS NO LINK BETWEEN 9/11 Terrorists and IRAQ--that's all I wanted to say, and that I was not a fan of that being a reason to support the war before it started. Hopefully we are a little more straight and on the same page.

PS-the believe (not found Proof of) elements in Northern Iraq, They believe that before with Southern Iraq, however they found no proof.

-Jim

Hi Jim, well I'm glad to hear you don't deny that IRAQ does have a link to TERRORISM. (And I take it you mean the same kind of terrorism I'm talking about, ie the blowing up/killing of innocent people, especially bothering when it is on US soil, ie not just that he "terrorizes" his own people etc...)

My main responses in these posts were geared to your ", I am just not sold on the Iraqi Regime connection with the Taliban or AlQueda." statement.

I really can not say I know of a lot of "definitive" proof linking IRAQ to 9/11 specifically.(EXCEPT for INDIRECT link, ie Al Queda->9/11 and IRAQ<->Al Queda) BUT I think there is definitely proof linking IRAQ to AlQueda and/or Taliban, and to that end I gave you information regarding the AlQueda operative, Yousef with ties to IRAQ. But to me, the imporant thing is that IRAQ has ties with TERRORISM abroad. I really don't care with what terrorist organization they are working. There are a whole LOT of terrorist organizations. IRAQ has its own internal ones and links to others as well.

So in regards to 9/11, I agree with you in that I am NOT aware of any definitive proof linking IRAQ to 9/11 "directly" but INDIRECTLY through IRAQ's link to AlQueda YES. Saudi Arabia is definitely implicated directly though as you confirmed...and YES I believe the US has been to forgiving with Saudi Arabia and Egypt which both harbor terrorists and should have a tougher stance against them. HECK! these two countries were EXEMPT from providing rosters of people on flights from their countries to the US! Other countries do provide them so US can check to see if they are "aware" of any terrorists on board etc...

I FOUND THIS interesting reading:"
Text of Bush's proposed congressional resolution

A text of the joint resolution that President Bush asked Congress to approve:

Joint Resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.

Whereas Congress in 1998 concluded that Iraq was then in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations and thereby threatened the vital interests of the United States and international peace and security, stated the reasons for that conclusion, and urged the president to take appropriate action to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations (Public Law 105-235);

Whereas Iraq remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations, thereby continuing to threaten the national security interests of the United States and international peace and security;

Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolutions of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population, including the Kurdish peoples, thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people;

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States, including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council;

Whereas members of al-Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on Sept. 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of American citizens;

Whereas the attacks on the United States of Sept. 11, 2001. underscored the gravity of the threat that Iraq will transfer weapons of mass destruction to international terrorist organizations;

Whereas the United States has the inherent right, as acknowledged in the United Nations Charter, to use force in order to defend itself;

Whereas Iraq's demonstrated capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction, the high risk that the current Iraqi regime will either employ those weapons to launch a surprise attack against the United States or its armed forces or provide them to international terrorists who would do so, and the extreme magnitude of harm that would result to the United States and its citizens from such an attack, combine to justify the use of force by the United States in order to defend itself;

Whereas Iraq is in material breach of its disarmament and other obligations under United Nations Security Council Resolution 687, to cease repression of its civilian population that threatens international peace and security under United Nations Security Council Resolution 688, and to cease threatening its neighbors of United Nations operations in Iraq under United Nations Security Council Resolution 949, and United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 authorizes use of all necessary means to compel Iraq to comply with these "subsequent relevant resolutions;"

Whereas Congress in the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1) has authorized the president to use the Armed Forces of the United States to achieve full implementation of Security Council Resolutions 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 674, and 677, pursuant to Security Council Resolution 678;

Whereas Congress in section 1095 of Public Law 102-190 has stated that it "supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of Security Council Resolution 687 as being consistent with the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq (Public Law 102-1)," that Iraq's repression of its civilian population violates United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 and "constitutes a continuing threat to the peace, security, and stability of the Persian Gulf region," and that Congress "supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of Resolution 688";

Whereas Congress in the Iraq Liberation Act (Public Law 105-338) has expressed its sense that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;

Whereas the president has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40); and

Whereas the president has authority under the Constitution to use force in order to defend the national security interests of the United States;

Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This joint resolution may be cited as the "Further Resolution on Iraq".

SECTION 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMS FORCES.

The president is authorized to use all means that he determines to be appropriate, including force, in order to enforce the United Nations Security Council resolutions referenced above, defend the national security interests of the United States against the threat posed by Iraq, and restore international peace and security in the region.

Joe-why you gotta make me read so much!!! lol

LoL, sorry I read a lot of this kind of stuff more than about fish but ssshhhhhh don't tell anybody!!

(new tidbits, I wasn't aware of President Clinton's Executive Order 13129..) And as a sidenote, AbcNews is a lot more liberal than FOX is conservative. Let's not talk about Cbs or Pbs or most of all the other channels, mainly all liberal. Also, what may surprise people is FOX company had actually backed Al Gore instead of George bush. You can confirm this on official government websites: [url]http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/executive_orders/1999.html[/url]
Oh yea, and do a GOOGLE search on Ramzi Yousef lot's of info on Iraq and terrorism.
(By the way, I just posted this because I wanted to keep the info handy, and forum here was pretty quick and easy place to store
-------------------------------------
Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, & the 9-11 hijackers received assistance from Iraq.


Bill Clinton declared in Executive Order 13129 of July 4, 1999: I, William Jefferson Clinton, President of the United States of America, find that the actions and policies of the Taliban in Afghanistan, in allowing territory under its control in Afghanistan to be used as a safe haven and base of operations for Usama Bin Laden and the al-Qaeda (sic) organization who have committed and threaten to continue to commit acts of violence against the United States and its nationals, constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the U.S., and hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that threat.

On June 30, 2001 President George W. Bush continued the same Executive Order from Bill Clinton, using nearly identical language in a notice repeated here:

23. On information and belief, Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and the hijackers also received material support and assistance from Iraq, by and through its officials, agents, and/or employees, to carry out terrorist attacks on the United States, including the September 11, 2001 attacks.

24. In their February 23,1998 Fatwah, Bin Laden, and Al Qaeda expressly referenced the United States’ “continuing aggression” towards Iraq as one of their reasons for calling on all Muslims to kill Americans “wherever and whenever” the are found:
The best proof of this is the Americans’ continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the [Arabian] Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, still they are helpless.

Bin Laden’s and Al Qaeda’s Fatwah also cited the alleged “great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people” by the United States, as well as the United States alleged “eagerness to destroy Iraq.”

25. Bin Laden reportedly visited Baghdad for consultations in March 1998. Giovanni De Stefano, an international lawyer visiting Baghdad on business, had a chance encounter with Bin Laden in the lobby of the Al-Rashid Hotel, during which the two men introduced themselves and engaged in polite conversation. De Stefano did not, at the time, recognize Bin Laden’s name. Five months after the chance encounter, agents of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda attacked the American embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar-es-Salaam, Tanzania.

26. Between April 25 and May 1, 1998, two of Bin Laden’s senior military commanders, Muhammad Abu-Islam and Abdallah Qassim, reportedly visited Baghdad for discussions with Saddam Hussein’s son -- Qusay Hussein -- the “czar” of Iraqi intelligence matters. Qusay Hussein’s participation in the meetings highlights the importance of the talks in both symbolic and practical terms. As a direct result of these meetings, Iraq reportedly made commitments to provide training, intelligence, clandestine Saudi border crossings, and weapons and explosives to support Al Qaeda.

27. By mid-June, 1998, operatives of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda reportedly were at the al-Nasiriyah training camp in Iraq receiving instruction and training from Iraqi intelligence and military officials on reconnaissance and targeting American facilities and installations for terrorist attacks. Another group of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda operatives from Saudi Arabia reportedly were trained by intelligence officials in Iraq to smuggle weapons and explosives into Saudi Arabia, and, upon returning to Saudi Arabia, successfully smuggled weapons and explosives into that country. A third group of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda operatives reportedly received a month of sophisticated guerrilla operations training from Iraqi intelligence officials later in the Summer of 1998.

28. Bin Laden reportedly sought to strengthen and reinforce the support he and Al Qaeda received from Iraq. In mid-July 1998, Bin Laden reportedly sent Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri, the Egyptian co-founder of Al Qaeda, to Iraq to meet with senior Iraqi officials, including Iraqi vice president Taha Yassin Ramadan. The reported purpose of this meeting was to discuss and plan a joint strategy for a terrorist campaign against the United States. Iraqi officials reportedly pledged Iraq’s full support and cooperation on the condition that Bin Laden and Al Qaeda not incite the Iraqi Muslim Brotherhood, a radical Islamic organization, against the regime of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. Zawahiri reportedly toured a potential site for a new headquarters for Bin Laden and Al Qaeda near al-Fallujah in Iraq and observed training by Iraqi intelligence officials of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda operatives at al-Nasiriyah. In recognition of Bin Laden’s and Al Qaeda’s leadership role in the terrorist war against the United States, Iraqi officials allowed Zawahiri to assume formal command over the al-Nasiriyah training camp in the name of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

29. By mid-November 1998, Saddam Hussein reportedly came to the conclusion (with the advice and prompting of his son and intelligence chief, Qusay), that a campaign of terrorist attacks against the United States, under the banner of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, was the most effective means of deflecting U.S. attempts to topple his regime.

30. Shortly thereafter, Iraqi intelligence officials reportedly met with Bin Laden in Afghanistan. Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and Iraq reportedly agreed to join efforts in a detailed, coordinated plan for a protracted terrorist war against the United States. Iraq also reportedly agreed to provide Bin Laden and Al Qaeda with the assistance of an expert in chemical weapons, and Bin Laden reportedly agreed to hunt down Iraqi opposition leaders who cooperated with the United States against Hussein. In furtherance of this agreement, Bin Laden reportedly dispatched four hundred of Al Qaeda’s “Afghan” Arabs to Iraq to fight Kurds.

31. Following a four day air strike by the United States in December 1998, Iraqi trade minister Muhammad Mahdi Salah reportedly stated that he expected terrorist activities against the United States to increase as a result of the bombing of Iraq. The Arabic language daily newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi first raised the issue of cooperation between Iraq, Bin Laden and Al Qaeda in a late December 1998 editorial, which predicted that “President Saddam Hussein, whose country was subjected to a four day air strike, will look for support in taking revenge on the United States and Britain by cooperating with Saudi oppositionist Osama bin-Laden, whom the United States considers to be the most wanted person in the world.” The editorial noted that this type of cooperation was very likely considering that “bin-Laden was planning moving to Iraq before the recent strike.”

32. Following the December 1998 air strikes, Saddam Hussein reportedly dispatched Faruq al-Hijazi to Kandahar, Afghanistan in order to meet with Bin Laden. Hijazi, the former deputy chief of Iraqi intelligence, had first met Bin Laden in 1994. During his visit to Kandahar, Hijazi reportedly offered expanded cooperation and assistance to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, as well as a re-extension of the offer of shelter and hospitality Iraq previously extended to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Bin Laden reportedly agreed in principle to give Iraq assistance in a revenge campaign against the United States, but suggested further study and coordination before committing to a specific course of action or agreeing to a particular terrorist strike.

33. To demonstrate Iraq’s commitment to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, Hijazi reportedly presented Bin Laden with a pack of blank, official Yemeni passports, supplied to Iraqi intelligence from their Yemeni contacts. Hijazi’s visit to Kandahar was reportedly followed by a contingent of Iraqi military intelligence officials who provided additional training and instruction to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda operatives in Afghanistan. These Iraqi officials reportedly included members of “Unit 999,” a group of elite, Iraqi intelligence officials who provided advanced sabotage and infiltration training and instruction for Al Qaeda operatives.

34. In addition to the al-Nasiriyah training camp, by January 1999, Bin Laden and Al Qaeda operatives also were reportedly being trained by Iraqi intelligence and military officers at training camps on the outskirts of Baghdad.

35. Following the Hijazi meetings, Qusay Hussein reportedly dispatched representatives to follow-up with Bin Laden and obtain his firm commitment to exact revenge against the United States for the December 1998 bombing campaign. Iraq reportedly offered Bin Laden and Al Qaeda an open-ended commitment to joint operations against the United States and its “moderate” Arab allies in exchange for an absolute guarantee that Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and their allies would not attempt to overthrow Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq.

36. Israeli sources reportedly claim that, for the past two years, Iraqi intelligence officers have been shuttling back and forth between Baghdad and Afghanistan. According to the Israelis, one of these Iraqi intelligence officers, Salah Suleiman, was captured last October by Pakistani officials near the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

37. In January 1999, Iraq reportedly began reorganizing and mobilizing intelligence front operations throughout Europe in support of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

38. According to Czech intelligence sources, Mohammad Atta, the operational ringleader of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, met in June 2000 with Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani, a consul and second secretary at the Iraqi embassy in Prague. Al-Ani is one of Iraqi’s most highly decorated intelligence officers, a special forces veteran, and a senior leader of Iraq’s “M-8” special operations branch. Other reports indicate that Al-Ani may have met with another hijacker, Khalid Almihdar.

39. Czech Interior Minister Stanislav Gross has confirmed that Atta met with al-Ani in early April 2001 in Prague. Atta also reportedly met with the Iraqi ambassador to Turkey and the former Iraqi deputy intelligence director, Farouk al-Hijazi, in Prague sometime in early April 2001.

40. Czech intelligence sources further report that Atta and al-Ani embraced upon meeting at Prague’s Ruzyne airport, and that Atta may have visited the Czech capitol on four other occasions.

41. Czech intelligence sources also reported that al-Ani had been under surveillance because he had been observed apparently surveying the Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty headquarters in Prague. Czech authorities believed the site had been selected for attack by terrorists. Later in 2001, al-Ani was expelled from the Czech Republic for espionage activities.

42. Reports of additional intelligence ties between Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and Iraq continue to mount. The CIA reportedly believes Iraq provided falsified passports for the nineteen hijackers who carried out the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. Further, senior U.S. intelligence sources have revealed that, in the Spring of 2001, Marwan al-Shehri and Ziad Jarrah -- two of Atta’s closest associates and members of the Al Qaeda “cell” in the Federal Republic of Germany -- met with known Iraqi intelligence agents outside the United States.

43. Italian security sources have reported that Iraq made use of its embassy in Rome to foster and cultivate Iraq’s partnership with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Habib Faris Abdullah al-Mamouri, a general in the Iraqi secret service, and, from 1982 to 1990, a member of Iraq’s “M-A” special operations branch charged with developing links with Islamist militants in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the states of the Persian Gulf, was stationed in Rome as an “instructor” for Iraqi diplomats. Al-Mamouri reportedly met with Mohammed Atta in Rome, Hamburg, and Prague. Al-Mamouri has not been seen in Rome since July 2001, shortly after he last met with Atta.

44. Recent Iraqi defectors provide additional details of Iraq’s support for international terrorism throughout the 1990s. The Public Broadcasting Service documentary program entitled “Frontline” interviewed former Iraqi intelligence and army officers with first-hand accounts of highly secret installations run by an international terrorist known to Iraqi staffers only as “the Ghost.” “The Ghost” is reported to be Abdel Hussein, the chief trainer at a training camp inside Iraq, which includes the fuselage of a Boeing 707 jetliner that is used to practice hijacking scenarios. U.N. inspectors independently confirmed the existence of this particular training camp inside Iraq.

45. The Iraqi defector known as “Saddam’s Bomb-maker,” Dr. Khidhir Hamza, who served as Iraq’s Director of Nuclear Weaponization, analyzes Iraqi’s sponsorship of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda as follows:

What I think is there is somehow a change in the level of the type of operation Bin Laden has been carrying [out]. What we are looking at initially is more or less just attempts to blow some buildings, just normal use of explosives for a terrorist. What we have in the September 11 operation, [is a] tightly controlled, very sophisticated operation; the type an Iraqi intelligence agency, well versed in the technology [could pull off]. ... So my thinking is a guy sitting in a cave in Afghanistan is not the guy who will do an operation of this caliber. It has to have in combination with it a guy with the sophistication and know-how on how to carry these things.

. . . Iraq [also] has a history of training terrorists, harboring them, and taking good care of them, by the way. A terrorist is well cared for with Saddam. So he has a good reputation in that type of community, if you like.

46. Several leading authorities on Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden, and Al Qaeda concur on the likelihood of Iraq’s sponsorship and coordination of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. The former head of Israel’s Mossad secret service, Rafi Eitan, and former CIA Director James Woolsey, share the view that Iraq, Bin Laden and Al Qaeda conspired in the attacks. Their views also are shared by Laurie Mylroie, an academic and Iraqi affairs expert at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington, D.C.. Mylroie cites the role of Iraqi operatives in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center to support her claim that the September 11, 2001 attacks are a matter of unfinished business for Iraq, which considers itself to be at war with the United States.

I was browsing around through the polls and I found this....Interesting poll!!!

I guess I feel differently being an aussie, but in my opinion, Bush is retarded. And for some reason our Prime Minister is kissing your Presidents ass.

Maybe we should re-open the poll in a new thread and see if opinions have changed over the years?

Funny that you brought it up, for one thing it seems most of the stuff I was saying was in fact proved correct, ie the terrorists from outside Iraq (and link of IRAQi general with terrorism Yousef etc.. was proven, also Saddam gave thousands of dollars to families of suicide bombers....how many remember the gruesome beheadings? Did anyone watch those videos? Man after I watched the one with the guy getting his head cut off alive, all tied up and ....well don't wanna go in details but it made me physically sick....

On another note, I don't think Bush is very intelligent either, but if he's retarted and your prime minister kisses his ass what does that make your prime minister? Personally I don't know if I'll be voting this next time around, I don't like McCain and I definitely don't like Barack Hussein Obama or Hillary Clinton....

Damn. We have to vote. Although John Howard isn't our prime minister any more. But ass kissing? Just made him all eyebrows and no balls.

But since when are you guys allowed to vote anyway, what has this world come to, penal colonies allowed to vote!
Actually, isn't Australia still under the "Crown"? (lol and the Crown is our President's stool, no pun intended,...or not )

Sort of. We're part of the commonwealth. So the prime minister makes all the calls instead of the Queen. It's the prime minister's call what Aus does as an individual country. But we have the attorney general or something watching him and reporting back to the queen if he steps out of line. He's the only man with the power in the country to strip the prime minister of his title. I don't really pay too much attention to it. Aussies don't give a stuff about politics as long as tax isn't too high and education's free for the kiddies.

Yea, from what I've heard (friend of mine's an aussie) most guys down there are too hung up (or over? ) on Fosters to care about anything....Over here everybody's into politics, even the dopeheads, lol or maybe them more than the rest!

Nah not fosters, Carlton Draught mate!!

Fosters is......horrid?

Ok, I think this deserves a real aussie consensus, I need Tony (oscar2001) to second your Carlton Draught vote!

just a quick punt at this topic from this end of the world, Firstly our PM is a woman (nothing wrong with that) , and don't think shes going win the next election , However she has balls of titanium or what ever the space shuttle is made of and dosn't mind standing up to bush. To me the war looks like a big cover up to keep the American econemy ticking along. now im not going to go into any further cause its been well coverd so far in this topic and i don't live in the USA and wouldn,t really now whats going on over their, but our $ is measured against the US and our $ is the strongest ever or has been recently against it. So something going on over their. Buy the Way the Aussies Have a beer called XXXX (four X) so we have joke in NZ
its old really old, but well we are on the subject.

Q. Way did the aussies call their beer xxxx
A. Cause they couldn't spell Beer

P.S Don't mind a joke thrown back from our neighbours ethier. Do they still have xxxx? it wasnt that nice.