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I am hoping someone can help me diagnose this. Conditions are as follows: 55 gal. tank, 2 emporer 400s. PH 6.9 Temperature 80 Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5 (usually kept under 10). This fish lives alone. I have been treating him for HITH but the condition keeps getting worse. I'm not sure if this is HITH because it is affecting his whole body. However, it doesn't look like a fungus as there are no cottony growths, I don't see any parisites, and bacterial inections are usually open red sores with swelling. I've been keeping the water conditions pretty good but the condition has been worsening. I've been adding liquid vitamins to his food and trying to vary it between pellet varieties and krill. I've even tried allowing more UV light to get to him hoping this would help. I've treated him on two separate occasions with HEX-OUT by aquarium products for Hole-in-the-Head. The condition has gotten worse since then. I have two other oscars in a 75 gal which I have successfully stopped the progression of HITH but this
guy won't get better. The other O's are also in a tank in my room using the same water and I clean the tanks at the same time so the water conditions are pretty much identical. Someone please help!

I have pictures but I can't seem to attach them. I'll put them up if someone can tell me how

The pics would be a good help. Can you post them in the photo gallery?

It says the gallery is down due to maintenence. I couldn't post them in my gallery either. How do I put the pics in a post?

when you use the post reply box, there is a link at the bottom. You can use this to attach files stored on your computor, to the reply.

pic

another

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Yes thats Hole in the head and lateral line erosion as well


Water sounds good and from my own dealing with HITH I don't think it's a food/vitamin issue (although it sometimes can be)


I'd start by checking for stray voltage - usually a heaters the culprit of this - when the heater lights on, (with shoes on) touch the water and see if you get zapped.
not the problem - then


If you use carbon in your filters? - throw it out! or at the least replace it.

If that doesn't help try treating with some metro (Metronidazole).

Good luck looks like a bad case

I've tried everything. At this point I think it is no longer a vitamin or even water quality issue. I've treated with Hex-Out in the past but after reading up on this for the past few days I think I didn't use enough. I've read that people have been successful with using 250mg to 500mg Metronidazole per 10 gallons. 500mg per 10 gallons to dose my 55 gallon for 3 to 10 days will be quite expensive. So my question is........can I put him in a 10 gallon tank and use 500mg doses for ten days? Will the protozaon still exist in my 55 gallon or does it just stay with the fish?

Attached below is some info i've gotten courtesy of http://www.piranha-fury.com Stillearnin do you think this sounds right? I guess at this point it is worth a try.

Your fish is suffering from what is known as Hexamitiasis. This is not a bacterial infection. As such normal broad spectrum antibiotics won't be effective; anticeptic solutions, much less effective. It is in fact an infection caused by hexamita, a type of flagellated protozoa. It's the most serious illness a flowerhorn could get. And it could be lethal. For a time, hexamita-infected flowerhorns in Malaysia were put to sleep as a standard measure to end the fish's misery and prevent further infestation. Of course, nowadays we know that there is a cure for this.

There are 2 ways hexamita could attack a luohan, either through the gastro-intestinal tract (this would be the case for your fish) or subcutaneously, that is, under the skin with visible holes to be seen around the head (this is known as the dreaded hole-in-the-head disease.)

The drug of choice to get rid of these protozoans is metronidazole, usually sold as Flagyl, 500mg. This drug could easily be bought OTC at any drugstore and is quite inexpensive. No need to look for hard-to-find magical petshop medications. It doesn't get easier than this.

The actual treatment though is a different matter. I'll give you a step-by-step process.

1. If you're using an overhead filter, remove the carbon if any. It would be ok to leave the glass wool in the filter box.

2. Perform a 50% water change. Syphon your tank until it's half empty. Replace with 25% chlorinated water and 25% conditioned water. (My definition of conditioned water would be that which has been aerated for at least 48 hours and dosed with aqutan.)

3. Dissolve the metronidazole tablet/s in a cup of warm water. Don't skip this proceedure. The water must really be warm. Metronidazole works best when dissolved at a temperature of 90+ degrees. A cup with 50%-60% "cofee-hot" water plus 40%-50% tap water would be fine.

4. Let the tablet/s dissolve for 5-10 minutes. Afterwards, mix well.

5. Drop the metronidazole solution in your tank. The required dosage would be 500 mg. for every 10 gallons.

6. Repeat steps 2-5 after 48 hours. You'd need around 7-8 doses of metronidazole. Usual treatment would be from 10-15 days. Observe the waste of your fish on a regular basis. If your fish shows improvement before 10-15 days, there's nothing wrong in finishing the entire cycle. Extend treatment if neccessary.

If you have a heater, set it at 30-32 degrees. Hexamita thrives in cold water. While the medication used to kill them works best in warm water. For those with no heaters, don't worry. Its not absolutely neccessary to use one. Just be sure to dissolve the metronidazole in warm water.

If you've got more time to treat your fish then you could apply the following protocol:

1. Again do steps 1 through 5.
2. After 24 hours, implement a 20-25% water change.
3. Drop your metronidazole solution but this time at 250 mg. for every 10 gallons. Repeat steps 2 & 3 everyday until the fish recovers.

By the way, the very best food for a flowerhorn recovering from a bout of Hexamitiasis would be frozen bloodworms. If the infected fish is still eating, a feeding of pellets pre-soaked in a metronidazole solution would make it recover quickly.

If the fish is suffering from the external type of hexamitiasis, the hole-in-the-head disease, the same proceedure above would cure it. In this case, malachite green may be used in conjunction with metronidazole primarily to prevent secondary infections.

This illness is quite common nowadays.

Stillearnin do you think this sounds right?

yep - as one possiable solution

If that doesn't help try treating with some metro (Metronidazole).

Will the protozaon still exist in my 55 gallon or does it just stay with the fish?

Only problem is NOONE has proven an exact cause of HITH,LLE or whatever other name or symptom name someone wants to give it. Sure lots of keepers have theories and many cures that "usually" work but nothing is set in stone. Hexamitiasis,Carbon,Vitamin deficency,Vitamin Toxicity,poor water quality,stray electrical current,etc.. <---- all have been proven and disproven LOL by different scientists.

But I'd treat in the big tank,better safe then sorry and metro won't kill off the bacteria in your filter so it's not a big deal.

Originally posted by stilllearnin
Only problem is NOONE has proven an exact cause of HITH,LLE or whatever other name or symptom name someone wants to give it. Sure lots of keepers have theories and many cures that "usually" work but nothing is set in stone. Hexamitiasis,Carbon,Vitamin deficency,Vitamin Toxicity,poor water quality,stray electrical current,etc.. <---- all have been proven and disproven LOL by different scientists.

I think it's possible that someone has documented and proven the exact cause of HITH, but there's such a flood of information (especially on the internet) that is contradictory that it's difficult to know which information is true! I haven't done this, but I have the feeling that if we took some time, got off the internet, and did some real research using legitimate scientific/veterenarian sources it might become clear. Or, is the scientific community as confused as we hobbiests are about HITH?:confused:

--Mark:cool:

Or, is the scientific community as confused as we hobbiests are about HITH?

Yep

Read any of the scientific or vet studies and you'll notice one thing they all share. = They all have a different oponion on what causes HITH LOL


And I still disagree with them all

Some of the long time members here may remember some of my old posts about HITH and my frustration.

I gave up , paid a vet (after a long search for one who'd see fish) and the anwser I got was "nothing is proven yet" but kindly enough and of coarse added to my bill somewhere he checked with some other vets and got a ton of anwsers to my problem - all of which were ruled out Some of the diagnoses I got were :
Zinc pipes in the water supply - which I ruled out,having all plastic pipes - later ruled out even more by adding a new clean shiney ceramic well pump
Stray electrical voltage ruled out by buying new heaters and trying grounding probes
Overloaded carbon kinda hard when not useing carbon
Vitamin issues pretty much ruled out by the vet himself on comparison of my other fish
Chemical reaction Ruled out since I had well water with no chemicals - same fish also had the same issues in city water before that and one actually does now again and I just moved and am back to city water.
Parasites ruled out by the vet after I got robbed opps I mean charged for "lab work" Also ruled out just in my own head by other oscars not catching it- even ones in close contact.

I still have oscars that get/show HITH (minor HITH but HITH none the less) I use no carbon,have clean water,have no stray electrical current and feed a variety of food

only option left is a parasite that noone can see ? My thoughts used to be maybe . But if it can't see it and it's there,why is it contageous? And if it's just luck why doesn't it show up in a scraping/culture done by a vet on three seperate fish

Some are kept in pairs and only one gets it.
Others were kept on a central filter,with perfect water quality and daily water changes and only my "albinos" ever got it - at one time I had 37 oscars (and other cichlids) in on the same system only 3 and the same 3 in that system showed HITH- . I've had one pair for about 6 or so years now and they've been in 55,75 and 125 gallon tanks and the male has showed HITH in each setup! (when spawned multiple times in a row) so I also ruled out tank size .And in my case it shows the worst in breeding fish


The one explaination I got from an elderly fish breeder and haven't read or heard anywhere else, that seems to make more sense then anything is stress when added to any one of the other possable causes, causes HITH which may or may not be correct, who knows but maybe.

I'll never (just personal oponion and experiances) be sold on a "cause of HITH" but it'd be nice to finally see one that someone can't disprove.

Originally posted by stilllearnin
I'll never (just personal oponion and experiances) be sold on a "cause of HITH" but it'd be nice to finally see one that someone can't disprove.

I'm interested on hearing your view on the idea that it is caused by Hexamita -- in my wanderings around the web and in the library, there have been many sources that claim Hexamita as the cause. There are just as many that say it isn't.

--Mark:cool:

I'm interested on hearing your view on the idea that it is caused by Hexamita

In some fish - it may be the cause.

In all? I don't buy it hexamita is a parasite so it should (at least in my line of thinking) show in a culture under a microscope and/or be contageous but thats not always the case

If Hexamita was always the cause -

people who do nothing but change their oscars diet should still have HITH? But some claim to cure it with just a diet change


If hexamita looks like this and people know it does then it should always show under a microscope? correct?

The other problem I have with just agreeing with hexamita being the cause - Is hexamita seems to also be everyones jump to conclusion for lateral line erosion and many consider LLE and HITH the same condition
But I've seen more fish look like thay have LLE that are effected by stray voltage.Crack an oscars heater and watch it suddenly get LLE

If hexamita causes both "diseases" it also makes me wonder why a large percentage of fish don't show both at the same time ?



Some interesting things I've read :

Spironucleus and Hexamita are spread by cross contamination of tank water. Ie: common use of infected dip nets from tank to tank

It is very contagious

So it's contageous? - but the majority of the time it doesn't spread? LOL I'm still confused .

Almost all fish carry Hexamita

Hmmm - but not all fish have HITH , which takes me back to my original thinking IF Hexamita is involved IMO it's not the single or only factor OPPS but wait if all fish carry it , How can it be contageous ?

In Discus, Hole in the Head disease is often associated with an infection of spironucleus/hexamita as they are common at the wound site. However they are not considered the cause, only an after injury infestation.

HMMM

Hexamitiasis also known as Hexamita meleagridis (Spironucleus) was discovered in game birds and the name was applied to a group of fish parasites with little to no research

Interesting huh? I couldn't totally prove or disprove that statement but I did find alot of information about pheasants haveing hexamita related problems in the 60's then hexamita was applied to discus in the early 70's. Also found this interesting definition -

Hexamita - flagellates free-living or parasitic in intestines of birds

from alot of different online dictonaries
and this one

Hexamitiasis is an acute infectious disease of turkeys, quail, ducks, chukar partridges and pigeons. Heavy losses have been reported in one outbreak in ring-necked pheasants.

Any chance the retail industry diagnosed a problem and found something they had on shelve that cured it sometimes? In our hobby,could that happen



Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there is no cause for HITH , I just don't belive there is one simple cause that has blanket coverage on all cases.

Maybe it's the "common cold" of the fish world -- a very recognizeable symptom of one of six-hundred possible diseases!

--Mark:cool: