CichlidFish.com - Fish That Think.

Maybe but something to consider with that scenerio is

95% of all blue dempseys in the hobby right now go through one main distributor and almost all of those come from the people who started and keep the line going in Argentina.
Info (whats avaliable anyways) on any other blues being spawned (not many,still) is they came from one of those two sources or their parents did.


This subject comes up in rotation on all the forums and club talks. It has been spoken on by both Jeff Rapps saying they're not hybrids and it has been spoken about by American hobbyists who seen the hybrid operation before any were publicly offered for sale (one who turned down their distributorship before Jeff or anyone else had them). Obviously I don't know everything said or all the evidence offered in every talk but The ACA,OCA,MCA and last I knew NO large cichlid clubs allow them to compete in cichlid shows where hybrids aren't allowed. So somewhere people must have found enough evidence of them being hybrids , since colors morphs of all other know non-hybrids (and even a few questionable) fish are allowed to compete.

I personally find them to be beautiful juveniles, and better looking adults than normal JDs.  Not that JDs don't look nice in the first place.  Even if it may seem so, I am not trying to persuade either way, just stating how I feel and look at it while explaining myself the best I can.

My opinion has no scientific reasoning, but, by looking at some regular JDs fed with a high spirulina diet (food that helps blue fish be more blue), the blue spotting on a normal JD is quite a vibrant blue.  I see it as a natural color the JDs have and not a far stretch that there could be a blue variety.  When looking at Red Os compared to common/wilds and tigers, I see it as a farther stretch there could be one that isn't albino/lutino that has such a lack of pattern. 

I feel that science, at too many times in our short existence, has taken leaps of assumption ...  believing that because we don't have a specimen on record, it cannot exist, that because something cannot be proven, it cannot be.  Look at the giant squid that scientists claimed were sailors fantasies from centuries past until they started finding them, or the world is flat and the sun, stars, and planets revolve around our puny piece of land and sea. 

Although I would also argue against scientists who claim there can't be any other life out there just because we don't have proof, but, it is harder to prove it doesn't exist because we haven't explored 100% of the universe with 100% accuracy, and, in the same respect it cannot be proven that there is by those who are adamant life does exist elsewhere.  We still find new species and varieties of species on land, so underwater ...  I don't think we have the slightest clue yet as to the possibilities.  So for us to say what exists or not, what is natural or not, without either being there/everywhere, or explicit documentation for a particular arguement, is always just a educated guess ...  but it is still a guess and not fact.

Reading the bluejax site, there have been blue and blue spawining, the fry living for 6 days.  To me, that is enough to show they can breed and have viable fry.  A mule won't produce offspring.  I would love to breed EBJDs if I had tank space and a place to sell the babies.  But, I wouldn't do a blue gene and a EB, it would have to be two EBJDs if I was going to do it, which I am seriously thinking about now.

I understand that people feel they are weak, they may be hybrids ...  hey, I drive a hybrid.  I am personally a german-italian hybrid.  Not saying hybridizing is right or wrong, but would it be as much of an issue if the EBJD turned out to be stronger than the normal JD?  I would say the fish hobby has the highest ratio of pure bred animals.  How many people you know that have papers for their cats or dogs?  I am not saying to ruin the hobby by hybridizing everything, nor would I ever condone dying or tattooing (or even piercing which there is a video of on YouTube, a tank of lip pierced Oscars).

There are other fish with colors that need good homes and are proven purebred, I agree.  The Ahli comes to mind for a blue variety.  I heard there used to be a blue Oscar (not blueberry) which would be interesting to have with a ruby, a red, an albino, a lutino, a tiger, and a common ...  what a tank that could be.

I will accept the EBJD as a non-hybrid until I see a DNA test to prove otherwise, which should be an easy task for the DNA people, although expensive.  Even then, personally, I would still own one and give it a great home because I personally enjoy their shape, color, and pattern ...  it is better than the normal JD IMO.  They are not that weak of a fish if you keep you nitrates ultra low and other parameters correct, as you should any aquarium kept freshwater fish.

The Ahli is too long for me.  I like Oscars for their round/oval, even, arrowhead-ish shape.  Most other fish are too long/vertically narrow to me, or, are just ugly in comparison, in my opinion.  Another example is, the only goldfish I like are Koi and comets, I cannot stand any of the other shapes, they are icky to me.  I guess I like mollies because they also have a round look (well, mine are always pregnant).

I support both decisions of people being skeptical and opting not to buy them because they are 'purebred' type of owners, and those who just love fish in general and get what they like, but still keep the fish's living quarters in the best condition they can.  I also think there is a chance that what Mark Stone said is true ...  there could be both a natural EBJD and a hybrid EBJD out there right now.  Again, DNA tests are the only way to prove it one way or another, or, you go diving a lot and come across one in nature, take a picture or catch it and bring it home.

I would say the competition doesn't allow EBJDs because they are not sure, and until they do, it is easier to not let them show.

Some interesting points some good ones 

But some don't compare  on an even level. Giant squid <-- is a great example of  scientists messing up for a while.But thats a wild animal that wasn't found , not a blue version an orginal breeder made for sale and advertised as a hybrid while others claimed to know more then the breeder.

Reading the bluejax site, there have been blue and blue spawining, the fry living for 6 days.  To me, that is enough to show they can breed and have viable fry.  A mule won't produce offspring.

Not,so  and here's where people can use the mule line of thinking for dempseys and reconsider the hybrid idea 

In most fertile mule mares, the mare passes on a complete set of her maternal genes (i.e. from her horse/pony mother) to the foal; a female mule bred to a horse will therefore produce a 100% horse foal. In the 1920s, "Old Beck" (Texas A&M) produced a mule daughter called "Kit". When Old Beck was bred to a horse stallion she produced a horse son (he sired horse foals). When bred to a donkey, she produced mule offspring. Likewise, a mare mule in Brazil has produced two 100% horse sons sired by a horse stallion.

A comparable case is that of a fertile hinny (ass mother, horse sire – the reverse of a mule) in China. Her offspring, "Dragon Foal", was sired by a donkey. Scientists expected a donkey foal if the mother had passed on her maternal chromosomes in the same way as a mule. However, Dragon Foal resembles a strange donkey with mule-like features. Her chromosomes and DNA tests confirm that she is a previously undocumented combination



Fish hybrids don't work the same though either , look to flowerhorns for more examples,some lines of flowerhorns are now made up fish from 6 (or more) genus and 10 (or more) species , they readily reproduce. Even though they were orginally/falsely marketed as a natural species they have since become know as hybrids,been more hybridized and still have full ability to reproduce.Fortunately a group of responsiable breeders is trying to keep those hybrids from entering pure lines now.

Not saying hybridizing is right or wrong, but would it be as much of an issue if the EBJD turned out to be stronger than the normal JD?

Yes! fish store "midas" are strong,some look great to! but most are midas X red devil hybrids,fact is hybrids are 1000 times easier to find then either,why loose 2 species to make things easy?

I would say the fish hobby has the highest ratio of pure bred animals.  How many people you know that have papers for their cats or dogs?

You are  mistaken some on that point.
papers mean nothing as far as cat and dog hybrids - all domestic dogs are the same species Canis familiaris , a breed is just that species breed for different traits (mutations) over several generations. Makeing a hybrid dog would be something like dog X wolf hybrid.  A dalmation X lab X poodle = mutt/whatever, is all still just Canis familiaris , 1 species no hybridization.

The problem is though in the fish hobby money values are lower so noone cares until hybrids catch on as "real species". Some people refuse to listen and the people who know often give up. I haven't given up yet though I like  cichlids,so I'm not sitting around until everything becomes one generic cichlid.
Some real common examples,to think over:
Parrot cichlids <-- hybrids midas X severum , try to buy a parrot cichlid a real one  (species=Hoplarchus psittacus) most places and you get something far far different. some fertile,some not , a gamble like a mule
"Flowerhorns" <-- just search forums and see how many "is my flowerhorn a trimac" or "I bought this as a _____ but it's a flowerhorn" type of posts you find.fertile
O.B. Africans <--- the hybrid varities are becoming endless! Ask someone  that is generally considered important, maybe Ad Konings , if all the O.B. types in the hobby exist in the wild,ask how many are misshappen and known to be hybrids, you might be shocked. fertile
Albino africans follow africans for a while, I'll bet you'll notice something - when an albino pops up,suddenly  several similar shapped species are suddenly avaliable as albino's and the first generations look slightly misshappen.fertile
midas/red devils it's been stated (over and over) and learned over and over the vast majority in the hobby are hybrids. Some people say as many as 99% sold are hybridsfertile
for those deep in the hobby there's the other supposed new species (usually expensive too) that prove to be hybrids



I'm no huge dempsey fan but consider if the blue is a hybrid - if only 50% of the people who own them breed them and follow the outcross program. There are a lot of dempseys floating around the look normal from the outcrossing,they don't sell for more because they look normal. - How many of those circulate back and end up bred with normal (know pure) dempseys and make more hybrids that nobody has a clue about?
    In a few years will there be a rush then to fix dempy's , like there is with midas and devils? Before someone says thats different - remember , common thought was they just looked different because they were different sexes (even the 9 species reciently described and named via DNA) . Seems senseless.

That is a lot to think about!  Thank you.  I can definitely see your points.